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>Heroku declined our request for further comment. “Unfortunately, we can’t publicly comment on legal matters,” said spokeswoman Dana Oshiro in an email. “Heroku

>Heroku declined our request for further comment. “Unfortunately, we can’t publicly comment on legal matters,” said spokeswoman Dana Oshiro in an email. “Heroku is committed to our customers’ success and focused on delivering the best possible product and experience. We’ll continue to update our customers via our blog.” I don't run a company, and I'm not responsible for maximizing return on my shareholders' investment. So maybe I lack the mental schemas that make these sorts of statements seem reasonable, but they always strike me as short-sighted. Yes, admitting wrongdoing may open you up to legal liability. But it seems to me that, in the long run, it's far better to take your licks and own up to your mistakes than to hide behind the shield of pending litigation. My gut instinct is to offer a sincere mea culpa and provide a transparent roadmap to improvement, and if you lose a court case then so be it. I'd like to think that the good will and respect you build from accountability and honesty will ultimately outweigh any short-term losses from court settlements or judgements. As I said, I don't live in that world. I would be saddened, though not necessarily surprised, to learn that I was wrong.

biot 14y ago
What makes this proposed class action suit possible is that Heroku did admit[0] that their service didn't match up with what their documentation and website claimed, that they messed up, and would be fixing it. And it wasn't something like "our documentation and site could have been misinterpreted", they actually admitted the website and documentation were inaccurate with metrics which were incorrect. It's like a class action lawyer's wet dream of culpability on the part of the defendant. [0] https://blog.heroku.com/archives/2013/2/16/routing_performance_update https://blog.heroku.com/archives/2013/2/16/routing_performan...
kyrra 14y ago
Seeing that there is a website/lawfirm[1] threatening legal action, I can bet Heroku/Salesforce lawyers jumped on that ASAP and let all their employees that are allowed to talk publicly not to comment on the issue anymore. The US legal system is setup that if a company admits fault in something like this, it makes defending yourself much more difficult. Meaning if a lawsuit is brought about, it's not about proving innocence anymore, it's about mitigating the damages you will have to pay. Your lawyer is going to want to have as many options available to him/her to deal with your case during it's lifespan, and admitting fault before the lawsuit even begins will limit the lawyers options when it comes to negotiations and what tactics they can use in the courtroom. [1] http://herokuclassaction.com/ http://herokuclassaction.com/
- incongruity 14y ago
  In the grand scheme of things, this is why it's always better to defect in the simplified idea game of the prisoner's dilemma. Collaboration is rarely rewarded once lawyers get anywhere near an issue and opting to collaborate (i.e.: admit fault and try to fix it) more or less wins you no points in court, in the U.S. Given that each possible liability is its own case and stands on its own merits, it pretty much matches the simplest case of the prisoner's dilemma perfectly, IMHO... and so here we are. Sadly.
  - OGinparadise 14y ago
    Collaboration is rarely rewarded once lawyers get anywhere near an issue and opting to collaborate (i.e.: admit fault and try to fix it) more or less wins you no points in court, in the U.S. Might, in part, have to do with how lawyers get compensated. A short case or a quick settlement will result in very little compensation for them. Over the course of years and decades that matters so we see everything analyzed to death. At $500+ an hour. Per lawyer.
    - jacques_chester 14y ago
      The careful decomposition of problem domain into solution domain followed by recursive search of the solution domain is the lawyer's job. If they don't analyse to death, they are breaching their fiduciary duty. Don't like the legal method? Don't hire a lawyer. Try doing it yourself. See how far you get when the other guy's lawyers have done the exhaustive analysis and found the deciding element buried in a logical node on a distant subgraph you didn't even know was there to be explored.
      - OGinparadise 14y ago
        Yeah, other developed countries are all going downhill for not being overlawyered up like in US. It's a system set by lawyers for lawyers so of course you need a lawyer more than in many other countries. "Everyone" sues over everything
resu_nimda 14y ago
They have made public statements on their blog, and hopefully that will continue. In this situation, I think it is the right move to avoid getting involved with this shameless law firm trying to incite drama for their own gain.
- redthrowaway 14y ago
  This seems like precisely the type of situation class action lawsuits are intended to deal with: a company defrauded a lot of its customers in the same way. It makes more sense for all parties that the case be tried as one than to hear each claimant individually.
Adaptive 14y ago
Sadly, the US legal system does not reward heartfelt, honest statements, particularly in these situations. Which is why fine print almost always makes even the nicest company sound like a jerk.
anigbrowl 14y ago
There's a middle ground; it is better to fess up and try to square things with your customers in a situation where you've done wrong, but at the same time you don't want to be exploited by unscrupulous plaintiffs in turn. Most of those customers just want what they paid for or to recover their actual losses (what are called economic damages in law) but a few may see a lawsuit as an opportunity to enrich themselves. The court system is supposed to prevent that, and overall it works moderately well, but once papers are filed it's better for the arguments to take place in court rather than outside.
danso 14y ago
> Yes, admitting wrongdoing may open you up to legal liability. But it seems to me that, in the long run, it's far better to take your licks and own up to your mistakes than to hide behind the shield of pending litigation. This is an admirable, well-intentioned perspective, but it is one that won't net you much benefit, not even in the long run. Filing legal papers -- or, in this case, raising the banner for a class-action -- is serious business. By the time it happens, the time for defusing the situation and calling a truce is long past. The only opinion that matters is that of the judge and/or jury. And let's face it, being the loser in court is going to have far more impact on the public's opinion of the defendant than any honest-from-the-heart statement or outreach. So with that said, there is nothing of substance that the defendant can say that will help them in court. The opposing attorney is not going to say, "Well, I was going to grill you, but I've had a change of heart ever since reading that impassioned, honest, salt-of-the-earth statement you released pre-trial". The judge won't care either. And the jurors aren't supposed to even be aware of it. I think a civil trial is not much different than the situation portrayed in the famous "Don't talk to police" video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc The people you're facing in court don't care that you've made an effort, post-lawsuit-filing, to be upfront and friendly. Anything you say will not help you, it can only hurt you. In this case, Heroku's reticence in speaking their mind outside of court is the right one.
OGinparadise 14y ago
This is normal, once legal threats are issued "we can't comment on legal issues...but customers are #1...blah blah" is the standard answer. A mea culpa right now might haunt you in the long term.

biot 14y ago

What makes this proposed class action suit possible is that Heroku did admit[0] that their service didn't match up with what their documentation and website claimed, that they messed up, and would be fixing it. And it wasn't something like "our documentation and site could have been misinterpreted", they actually admitted the website and documentation were inaccurate with metrics which were incorrect. It's like a class action lawyer's wet dream of culpability on the part of the defendant. [0] https://blog.heroku.com/archives/2013/2/16/routing_performance_update https://blog.heroku.com/archives/2013/2/16/routing_performan...

kyrra 14y ago

Seeing that there is a website/lawfirm[1] threatening legal action, I can bet Heroku/Salesforce lawyers jumped on that ASAP and let all their employees that are allowed to talk publicly not to comment on the issue anymore. The US legal system is setup that if a company admits fault in something like this, it makes defending yourself much more difficult. Meaning if a lawsuit is brought about, it's not about proving innocence anymore, it's about mitigating the damages you will have to pay. Your lawyer is going to want to have as many options available to him/her to deal with your case during it's lifespan, and admitting fault before the lawsuit even begins will limit the lawyers options when it comes to negotiations and what tactics they can use in the courtroom. [1] http://herokuclassaction.com/ http://herokuclassaction.com/

incongruity 14y ago
In the grand scheme of things, this is why it's always better to defect in the simplified idea game of the prisoner's dilemma. Collaboration is rarely rewarded once lawyers get anywhere near an issue and opting to collaborate (i.e.: admit fault and try to fix it) more or less wins you no points in court, in the U.S. Given that each possible liability is its own case and stands on its own merits, it pretty much matches the simplest case of the prisoner's dilemma perfectly, IMHO... and so here we are. Sadly.
- OGinparadise 14y ago
  Collaboration is rarely rewarded once lawyers get anywhere near an issue and opting to collaborate (i.e.: admit fault and try to fix it) more or less wins you no points in court, in the U.S. Might, in part, have to do with how lawyers get compensated. A short case or a quick settlement will result in very little compensation for them. Over the course of years and decades that matters so we see everything analyzed to death. At $500+ an hour. Per lawyer.
  - jacques_chester 14y ago
    The careful decomposition of problem domain into solution domain followed by recursive search of the solution domain is the lawyer's job. If they don't analyse to death, they are breaching their fiduciary duty. Don't like the legal method? Don't hire a lawyer. Try doing it yourself. See how far you get when the other guy's lawyers have done the exhaustive analysis and found the deciding element buried in a logical node on a distant subgraph you didn't even know was there to be explored.
    - OGinparadise 14y ago
      Yeah, other developed countries are all going downhill for not being overlawyered up like in US. It's a system set by lawyers for lawyers so of course you need a lawyer more than in many other countries. "Everyone" sues over everything

resu_nimda 14y ago

They have made public statements on their blog, and hopefully that will continue. In this situation, I think it is the right move to avoid getting involved with this shameless law firm trying to incite drama for their own gain.

redthrowaway 14y ago
This seems like precisely the type of situation class action lawsuits are intended to deal with: a company defrauded a lot of its customers in the same way. It makes more sense for all parties that the case be tried as one than to hear each claimant individually.

Adaptive 14y ago

Sadly, the US legal system does not reward heartfelt, honest statements, particularly in these situations. Which is why fine print almost always makes even the nicest company sound like a jerk.

anigbrowl 14y ago

There's a middle ground; it is better to fess up and try to square things with your customers in a situation where you've done wrong, but at the same time you don't want to be exploited by unscrupulous plaintiffs in turn. Most of those customers just want what they paid for or to recover their actual losses (what are called economic damages in law) but a few may see a lawsuit as an opportunity to enrich themselves. The court system is supposed to prevent that, and overall it works moderately well, but once papers are filed it's better for the arguments to take place in court rather than outside.

danso 14y ago

> Yes, admitting wrongdoing may open you up to legal liability. But it seems to me that, in the long run, it's far better to take your licks and own up to your mistakes than to hide behind the shield of pending litigation. This is an admirable, well-intentioned perspective, but it is one that won't net you much benefit, not even in the long run. Filing legal papers -- or, in this case, raising the banner for a class-action -- is serious business. By the time it happens, the time for defusing the situation and calling a truce is long past. The only opinion that matters is that of the judge and/or jury. And let's face it, being the loser in court is going to have far more impact on the public's opinion of the defendant than any honest-from-the-heart statement or outreach. So with that said, there is nothing of substance that the defendant can say that will help them in court. The opposing attorney is not going to say, "Well, I was going to grill you, but I've had a change of heart ever since reading that impassioned, honest, salt-of-the-earth statement you released pre-trial". The judge won't care either. And the jurors aren't supposed to even be aware of it. I think a civil trial is not much different than the situation portrayed in the famous "Don't talk to police" video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc The people you're facing in court don't care that you've made an effort, post-lawsuit-filing, to be upfront and friendly. Anything you say will not help you, it can only hurt you. In this case, Heroku's reticence in speaking their mind outside of court is the right one.

OGinparadise 14y ago

This is normal, once legal threats are issued "we can't comment on legal issues...but customers are #1...blah blah" is the standard answer. A mea culpa right now might haunt you in the long term.