7 ms·

Why (or why not) to move your company to Amsterdam

49 points by inbys 14y ago

sgt 14y ago
Also factor in the time you're going to be spending learning Dutch. You'll probably get by with English alone since everyone will speak it with you, but it's certainly less than optimal.
- mtrimpe 14y ago
  Apart from London Amsterdam is probably the city where you can get by most easily speaking only English. It will be hard to fully integrate into Dutch social life without learning proper Dutch of course, but professionally it will not be much of a problem and the expat community is so large that it is fairly easy to build a decent social life within it.
  - jonascopenhagen 14y ago
    > Amsterdam is probably the only city, apart from London, where you can get by perfectly speaking only English. You can get by perfectly speaking only English in most of Northern Europe. Southern Europe is a different story.
    - mtrimpe 14y ago
      Seeing that your from Copenhagen; how is the expat community there? Here it feels very thriving, lively and well-functioning, but quite insular because on the one hand we make it so easy to get by with English alone but on the other hand we don't truly accept people into our social circles unless they speak Dutch. Can you relate to that?
      - jonascopenhagen 14y ago
        Yes and no - the Americans I know who live here are generally very happy with it. Some are so used to being able to speak English everywhere in Denmark that they live here for years without getting to know the language. But I would definitely recommend people who live here for a longer time (two or more years) to learn a little Danish. It's not that hard, and they can use their knowledge of Danish to easily learn similar languages like German, Swedish, etc.
        mtrimpe 14y ago
        That sounds very similar to here; although here learning the language usually starts closer to the 4 or 5 year mark. Once again I'm forgetting Denmark as 'the other country that is so much like ours.'
  - patrickk 14y ago
    Dublin? Everyone in Ireland (well 99.99%) speaks English as their first language. Some people even speak Irish ;)
    - mtrimpe 14y ago
      Isn't Dublin a part of England though? ;) But good catch... I meant countries where English is not already the native language.
      - ay 14y ago
        Just for the record: No, it's not part of England ;-) The Northern Ireland (its capital Belfast) is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, alongside with England, Scotland, and Wales. Dublin is a capital of the Republic of Ireland, which is on the south, and is a separate country (TLD .ie :) which uses euro as the currency, contrary to the UK's pound. I am being a bit pedantic with since the whole UK/Ireland story is still a pretty fresh wound and making such a mistake might get one some negative brownie points in the conversation :-)
        mtrimpe 14y ago
        Just for the record, I was being facetious. My apologies if I misjudged the freshness of the wound.
        patrickk 14y ago
        It's a bit like making a joke about Israel/Palestine. In Northern Ireland at least, you had state-sponsored terrorism by the police, IRA blowing up civilians, thousands killed - the very worst sectarianism imaginable. Some of this continued into the 90s so yes, the wounds are still fresh. That doesn't even delve into the long, brutal history between Ireland and England spanning centuries, a relationship that's only healing today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
        ay 14y ago
  - LaGrange 14y ago
    There is a high availability of Dutch courses for expats, though, and if you know English and/or German already, you actually have quite a good start.
  - sgt 14y ago
    Exactly my point. It's going to be possible to get by, but hard to integrate into dutch society and social life. That's just how it is in every country. Let's be realistic here. Take Norway for instance, everybody loves to speak English but you'd really need to learn Norwegian to fully enjoy living there for years on end.
- digitalengineer 14y ago
  Actually quite difficult to learn Dutch. Just about everybody will start to talk English to you when they notice you're from UK/US.
  - alistairSH 14y ago
    The few people I know who have spent time in Amsterdam also had the same comment. To the point that it was a running joke.
generalseven 14y ago
Very lively, internationally oriented, creative environment. Very strong hacker community with excellent people who are unfortunately (still) undervalued and misunderstood by their government. The article is probably wrong on one point: I don't believe you ever get used to the weather.
josscrowcroft 14y ago
So, although I found the article a little bit light, I'm fascinated to hear anybody's experience of Amsterdam for solo entrepreneurs and creatives. I've been considering it as a place to live, work and play for a while. E.g. what are the pros/cons of moving there for 3–6 months, assuming there are no plans to raise funding, hire staff or rent an office?
- digitalengineer 14y ago
  Dutchman here. Depends on where your from. Trying to find an affordable place to live can be difficult. (Depending on what you feel is affordable). On the other hand, distance is nothing in Holland. You drive through the entire country in 3 hours. An affordable place to live just 30 min outside Amsterdam is a lot easier. Public transport is good, most of the time. Driving and parking in A'dam is expensive as well... Most people just drive a bike (not a motorbike). There's a ton of info over at http://appsterdam.rs/ http://appsterdam.rs/
  - raverbashing 14y ago
    Can you give a ballpark on rent figures? Also on average 'take home pay' for jobs
    - digitalengineer 14y ago
      Here's an overview with pictures and prices. Remember it's cheaper 30 min outslide of the city. http://www.funda.nl/huur/amsterdam/sorteer-huurprijs-op/p8/ http://www.funda.nl/huur/amsterdam/sorteer-huurprijs-op/p8/ Edit: What kind of jobs exactly?
      - raverbashing 14y ago
        Thanks for the link This prices are not expensive Ok, let me be more specific - Sw developer makes how much, and that's how much after taxes? - Senior Sw/Tech lead makes how much, takes how much home? For reference, here's Dublin: - Sw dev jobs pay around 3k to 5k per month, taking home btw 2k and 3k for that interval - A small flat, city center, 1 bedroom can go between 600 to 900, if you go a little further you can have a better price per bedroom. (even get a house for 1400 in some locations)
subsystem 14y ago
The real question is of course "Is it better than Berlin?". I personally wouldn't bother with any European city with housing market problem, excluding London.
- nirvana 14y ago
  No. And contrary to what others have said, more Germans know english than Dutch know english, on a day to day basis. Though you can get by without knowing dutch in amsterdam with a little creativity.
  - NonEUCitizen 14y ago
    Some Dutch words look like English words, and a lot of Dutch words are similar to German. So if you're an English-speaking expat in Amsterdam, learn German instead of Dutch (Goethe Institut is on Herengracht). Then you'll understand a bit of Dutch (though you don't have to since everyone speaks English), and you'll be all set when you move to Berlin later.
  - anton-107 14y ago
    Every educated Dutch person knows English. Even more than that - they willingly switch from Dutch to English when an international person joins the conversation. I can't say that I got the same impression about German people. They have very monolithic culture and it's not very open to foreigners. So if you do not want to learn neither Dutch nor German you better move to Amsterdam than Berlin.
  - DrinkWater 14y ago
    This is not what i experienced. I live in Germany, but i am quite often visiting the Netherlands. I was even able to speak to elderly people in English when i was lost in some small Dutch village.
  - Glowbox 14y ago
    Do you have any numbers to back that up? This site (http://www.nfia-india.com/why_english_speaking_society.html http://www.nfia-india.com/why_english_speaking_society.html) says 62% vs 91% in favor of the Netherlands. edit: seeing this guys profile/comments in this thread it's an obvious troll.
prtamil 14y ago
You should not move your company to Amsterdam because every employee can smoke pot legally :)
- cpursley 14y ago
  Better add Colorado and Washington state to that list. And maybe we should move all of our companies to Saudia Arabia since employees can drink legally everywhere else.
- kintamanimatt 14y ago
  So?
nirvana 14y ago
If you run a successful business in holland, and pay yourself a salary out of it, your tax rate is over %70! And on top of that, you have %20 VAT. And this isn't even going into the manifold fees and other types of taxes you are subjected to. ------------------------------- This comment is not spam. It had a nice positive score until the socialists arrived. Of course, socialists being unable to deal with reality (or history!) must censor those who point out simple facts that undermine their ideology. And so this comment has been downvoted to obscurity (-15 at this moment) to make it less likely others would be made aware of the high tax rates in holland. This kind of dishonesty and censorship is why you can't have fruitful discussion on hacker news. The site is overrun by ideologues and moderated by ideologues and anything that doesn't strictly toe to the fascist modern ideology gets the boot. Ok, just accept, though, that you're anti-intellectual in a very profound way. When you can't tolerate people stating inconvenient facts, it's time to admit you're an intellectual coward. Frankly, I think you're all shit. You've elected a guy who claims he has the right to kill any american with a drone strike, in america, without any due process. And you're so proud of it! It's astounding. You should be ashamed. Profoundly ashamed. But know this, it is your cowardice and intellectual dishonesty that caused the state of affairs we find ourselves in. Run away to amsterdam if you like, see how long it remains nice.
- ddbryant 14y ago
  Let's not make up numbers... Income tax is high here (not 70%) but you know, you get what you pay for. If you're American the 30% rule kicks in as long as you are here on a dutch american treaty visa or sponsored by a company. Any American can start a company here and get a 1 year visa. That's a pretty low barrier or entry compared to most countries. Corporate tax is also incredibly low, with a ton of benefits for the first 3 years you are a b.v. (dutch corp)
  - nirvana 14y ago
    Those aren't made up numbers. I actually did the math based on my income. How about you stop being a dishonest coward who characterizes your opponent, rather than making an argument, hmm? You don't get what you pay for, of course, if you bothered to actually add up what you really do pay, and what you really do get, but then that is the essential swindle isn't it? You and all the rest of the thieves like to pretend like it's better to pay government $20,000 a year for services the free market would happily deliver for $20. And then you act as if those of us who point out we're getting ripped off are "greedy", or in your case-- dishonest. Well, if you have to lie to make an argument, that tells me even you know your argument is the suck.
pogosian 14y ago
Do they have some sort of startup visa in Netherlands? Something like UK's Tier 1 Entrepreneur perhaps?
- digitalengineer 14y ago
  Even better, according to the guys at Appsterdam there's this piece of law created after WW2 where anyone from the US can start their own company in Holland. USA citizens can apply for a Dutch residence permit to be self-employed or operate their business in the Netherlands. They can also sponsor their married partners and minor children for residence. http://www.expatlaw.nl/dutch_american_friendship_treaty.htm http://www.expatlaw.nl/dutch_american_friendship_treaty.htm
  - mtrimpe 14y ago
    And we also have a classic entrepreneurs visa, for which you'll be evaluated on education, experience and the innovativity & financial position of the company. If you're a solid startup that should be fairly easy to pass, but it's not a done deal. Only about 300 people per year pass the criteria in practice. You can find the criteria in Dutch here: https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/stcrt-2010-16617.html https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/stcrt-2010-16617.htm... That URL breaks Google translate oddly enough though, so you'll have to copy and paste the content.
  - joonix 14y ago
    I'm guessing residents under this visa don't get any government benefits such as free healthcare, correct?
    - digitalengineer 14y ago
      I think you just buy regular basic insurance like the rest. It costs about €99,-
sangupta 14y ago
Any links to finding more information on moving from Asia?
Mvandenbergh 14y ago
The real question of course is 'move from where?'. Should you move your company from Silicon Valley to Amsterdam? Probably not. Should you move it from somewhere else in Europe? Maybe.
nephronim 14y ago
If we can get the startup community in Amsterdam actively collaborating with each other I think Amsterdam could be as strong as any startup hub in Europe. Hence the mention of http://pitch.rs http://pitch.rs in the article.
kosherbeefcake 14y ago
How easy is it to move or at least move a business over to Amsterdam, from the US?

49 points by inbys 14y ago

sgt 14y ago

Also factor in the time you're going to be spending learning Dutch. You'll probably get by with English alone since everyone will speak it with you, but it's certainly less than optimal.

mtrimpe 14y ago
Apart from London Amsterdam is probably the city where you can get by most easily speaking only English. It will be hard to fully integrate into Dutch social life without learning proper Dutch of course, but professionally it will not be much of a problem and the expat community is so large that it is fairly easy to build a decent social life within it.
- jonascopenhagen 14y ago
  > Amsterdam is probably the only city, apart from London, where you can get by perfectly speaking only English. You can get by perfectly speaking only English in most of Northern Europe. Southern Europe is a different story.
  - mtrimpe 14y ago
    Seeing that your from Copenhagen; how is the expat community there? Here it feels very thriving, lively and well-functioning, but quite insular because on the one hand we make it so easy to get by with English alone but on the other hand we don't truly accept people into our social circles unless they speak Dutch. Can you relate to that?
    - jonascopenhagen 14y ago
      Yes and no - the Americans I know who live here are generally very happy with it. Some are so used to being able to speak English everywhere in Denmark that they live here for years without getting to know the language. But I would definitely recommend people who live here for a longer time (two or more years) to learn a little Danish. It's not that hard, and they can use their knowledge of Danish to easily learn similar languages like German, Swedish, etc.
      - mtrimpe 14y ago
        That sounds very similar to here; although here learning the language usually starts closer to the 4 or 5 year mark. Once again I'm forgetting Denmark as 'the other country that is so much like ours.'
- patrickk 14y ago
  Dublin? Everyone in Ireland (well 99.99%) speaks English as their first language. Some people even speak Irish ;)
  - mtrimpe 14y ago
    Isn't Dublin a part of England though? ;) But good catch... I meant countries where English is not already the native language.
    - ay 14y ago
      Just for the record: No, it's not part of England ;-) The Northern Ireland (its capital Belfast) is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, alongside with England, Scotland, and Wales. Dublin is a capital of the Republic of Ireland, which is on the south, and is a separate country (TLD .ie :) which uses euro as the currency, contrary to the UK's pound. I am being a bit pedantic with since the whole UK/Ireland story is still a pretty fresh wound and making such a mistake might get one some negative brownie points in the conversation :-)
      - mtrimpe 14y ago
        Just for the record, I was being facetious. My apologies if I misjudged the freshness of the wound.
        patrickk 14y ago
        It's a bit like making a joke about Israel/Palestine. In Northern Ireland at least, you had state-sponsored terrorism by the police, IRA blowing up civilians, thousands killed - the very worst sectarianism imaginable. Some of this continued into the 90s so yes, the wounds are still fresh. That doesn't even delve into the long, brutal history between Ireland and England spanning centuries, a relationship that's only healing today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
        ay 14y ago
- LaGrange 14y ago
  There is a high availability of Dutch courses for expats, though, and if you know English and/or German already, you actually have quite a good start.
- sgt 14y ago
  Exactly my point. It's going to be possible to get by, but hard to integrate into dutch society and social life. That's just how it is in every country. Let's be realistic here. Take Norway for instance, everybody loves to speak English but you'd really need to learn Norwegian to fully enjoy living there for years on end.
digitalengineer 14y ago
Actually quite difficult to learn Dutch. Just about everybody will start to talk English to you when they notice you're from UK/US.
- alistairSH 14y ago
  The few people I know who have spent time in Amsterdam also had the same comment. To the point that it was a running joke.

generalseven 14y ago

Very lively, internationally oriented, creative environment. Very strong hacker community with excellent people who are unfortunately (still) undervalued and misunderstood by their government. The article is probably wrong on one point: I don't believe you ever get used to the weather.

josscrowcroft 14y ago

So, although I found the article a little bit light, I'm fascinated to hear anybody's experience of Amsterdam for solo entrepreneurs and creatives. I've been considering it as a place to live, work and play for a while. E.g. what are the pros/cons of moving there for 3–6 months, assuming there are no plans to raise funding, hire staff or rent an office?

digitalengineer 14y ago
Dutchman here. Depends on where your from. Trying to find an affordable place to live can be difficult. (Depending on what you feel is affordable). On the other hand, distance is nothing in Holland. You drive through the entire country in 3 hours. An affordable place to live just 30 min outside Amsterdam is a lot easier. Public transport is good, most of the time. Driving and parking in A'dam is expensive as well... Most people just drive a bike (not a motorbike). There's a ton of info over at http://appsterdam.rs/ http://appsterdam.rs/
- raverbashing 14y ago
  Can you give a ballpark on rent figures? Also on average 'take home pay' for jobs
  - digitalengineer 14y ago
    Here's an overview with pictures and prices. Remember it's cheaper 30 min outslide of the city. http://www.funda.nl/huur/amsterdam/sorteer-huurprijs-op/p8/ http://www.funda.nl/huur/amsterdam/sorteer-huurprijs-op/p8/ Edit: What kind of jobs exactly?
    - raverbashing 14y ago
      Thanks for the link This prices are not expensive Ok, let me be more specific - Sw developer makes how much, and that's how much after taxes? - Senior Sw/Tech lead makes how much, takes how much home? For reference, here's Dublin: - Sw dev jobs pay around 3k to 5k per month, taking home btw 2k and 3k for that interval - A small flat, city center, 1 bedroom can go between 600 to 900, if you go a little further you can have a better price per bedroom. (even get a house for 1400 in some locations)

subsystem 14y ago

The real question is of course "Is it better than Berlin?". I personally wouldn't bother with any European city with housing market problem, excluding London.

nirvana 14y ago
No. And contrary to what others have said, more Germans know english than Dutch know english, on a day to day basis. Though you can get by without knowing dutch in amsterdam with a little creativity.
- NonEUCitizen 14y ago
  Some Dutch words look like English words, and a lot of Dutch words are similar to German. So if you're an English-speaking expat in Amsterdam, learn German instead of Dutch (Goethe Institut is on Herengracht). Then you'll understand a bit of Dutch (though you don't have to since everyone speaks English), and you'll be all set when you move to Berlin later.
- anton-107 14y ago
  Every educated Dutch person knows English. Even more than that - they willingly switch from Dutch to English when an international person joins the conversation. I can't say that I got the same impression about German people. They have very monolithic culture and it's not very open to foreigners. So if you do not want to learn neither Dutch nor German you better move to Amsterdam than Berlin.
- DrinkWater 14y ago
  This is not what i experienced. I live in Germany, but i am quite often visiting the Netherlands. I was even able to speak to elderly people in English when i was lost in some small Dutch village.
- Glowbox 14y ago
  Do you have any numbers to back that up? This site (http://www.nfia-india.com/why_english_speaking_society.html http://www.nfia-india.com/why_english_speaking_society.html) says 62% vs 91% in favor of the Netherlands. edit: seeing this guys profile/comments in this thread it's an obvious troll.

prtamil 14y ago

You should not move your company to Amsterdam because every employee can smoke pot legally :)

cpursley 14y ago
Better add Colorado and Washington state to that list. And maybe we should move all of our companies to Saudia Arabia since employees can drink legally everywhere else.
kintamanimatt 14y ago
So?

nirvana 14y ago

If you run a successful business in holland, and pay yourself a salary out of it, your tax rate is over %70! And on top of that, you have %20 VAT. And this isn't even going into the manifold fees and other types of taxes you are subjected to. ------------------------------- This comment is not spam. It had a nice positive score until the socialists arrived. Of course, socialists being unable to deal with reality (or history!) must censor those who point out simple facts that undermine their ideology. And so this comment has been downvoted to obscurity (-15 at this moment) to make it less likely others would be made aware of the high tax rates in holland. This kind of dishonesty and censorship is why you can't have fruitful discussion on hacker news. The site is overrun by ideologues and moderated by ideologues and anything that doesn't strictly toe to the fascist modern ideology gets the boot. Ok, just accept, though, that you're anti-intellectual in a very profound way. When you can't tolerate people stating inconvenient facts, it's time to admit you're an intellectual coward. Frankly, I think you're all shit. You've elected a guy who claims he has the right to kill any american with a drone strike, in america, without any due process. And you're so proud of it! It's astounding. You should be ashamed. Profoundly ashamed. But know this, it is your cowardice and intellectual dishonesty that caused the state of affairs we find ourselves in. Run away to amsterdam if you like, see how long it remains nice.

ddbryant 14y ago
Let's not make up numbers... Income tax is high here (not 70%) but you know, you get what you pay for. If you're American the 30% rule kicks in as long as you are here on a dutch american treaty visa or sponsored by a company. Any American can start a company here and get a 1 year visa. That's a pretty low barrier or entry compared to most countries. Corporate tax is also incredibly low, with a ton of benefits for the first 3 years you are a b.v. (dutch corp)
- nirvana 14y ago
  Those aren't made up numbers. I actually did the math based on my income. How about you stop being a dishonest coward who characterizes your opponent, rather than making an argument, hmm? You don't get what you pay for, of course, if you bothered to actually add up what you really do pay, and what you really do get, but then that is the essential swindle isn't it? You and all the rest of the thieves like to pretend like it's better to pay government $20,000 a year for services the free market would happily deliver for $20. And then you act as if those of us who point out we're getting ripped off are "greedy", or in your case-- dishonest. Well, if you have to lie to make an argument, that tells me even you know your argument is the suck.

pogosian 14y ago

Do they have some sort of startup visa in Netherlands? Something like UK's Tier 1 Entrepreneur perhaps?

digitalengineer 14y ago
Even better, according to the guys at Appsterdam there's this piece of law created after WW2 where anyone from the US can start their own company in Holland. USA citizens can apply for a Dutch residence permit to be self-employed or operate their business in the Netherlands. They can also sponsor their married partners and minor children for residence. http://www.expatlaw.nl/dutch_american_friendship_treaty.htm http://www.expatlaw.nl/dutch_american_friendship_treaty.htm
- mtrimpe 14y ago
  And we also have a classic entrepreneurs visa, for which you'll be evaluated on education, experience and the innovativity & financial position of the company. If you're a solid startup that should be fairly easy to pass, but it's not a done deal. Only about 300 people per year pass the criteria in practice. You can find the criteria in Dutch here: https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/stcrt-2010-16617.html https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/stcrt-2010-16617.htm... That URL breaks Google translate oddly enough though, so you'll have to copy and paste the content.
- joonix 14y ago
  I'm guessing residents under this visa don't get any government benefits such as free healthcare, correct?
  - digitalengineer 14y ago
    I think you just buy regular basic insurance like the rest. It costs about €99,-

sangupta 14y ago

Any links to finding more information on moving from Asia?

Mvandenbergh 14y ago

The real question of course is 'move from where?'. Should you move your company from Silicon Valley to Amsterdam? Probably not. Should you move it from somewhere else in Europe? Maybe.

nephronim 14y ago

If we can get the startup community in Amsterdam actively collaborating with each other I think Amsterdam could be as strong as any startup hub in Europe. Hence the mention of http://pitch.rs http://pitch.rs in the article.

kosherbeefcake 14y ago

How easy is it to move or at least move a business over to Amsterdam, from the US?