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"auguring well for the future" Are you kidding me? Religion at large, especially the churches are dying… Also with "sex scandals" they mean [child] RAPE scandal

• nnq 14y ago
  The churches are dying very slowly and they are leaving behind a huge void that will have to filled somehow (hint: science or science education is not the thing to fill it with... maybe an evolved "science based philosophy" could but I don't know). And it's very interesting to see what kind of "spiritual products" will fill this market void ...hopefully less toxic ones.
  • jiggy2011 14y ago
    does it need to be "spiritual" based, or is the community aspect that is important? In other words do you think there is some amount of the population who fundamentally require spiritual belief of some kind in order to be happy?
    • nnq 14y ago
      I actually believe we all need some kind of "spiritual" element if our life, it's a basic psychological necessity. Some of us can get this in a "disguised" form from pondering deep scientific questions or working on complicated problems that actually bring the mind to its limits and provide it with some "glimpse of the beyond". But I do believe that a large percent of the populations also needs some form of "socialized spirituality", and this is what traditional religions offer.
      • andyjohnson0 14y ago
        "But I do believe that a large percent of the populations also needs some form of "socialized spirituality", and this is what traditional religions offer." I think you're right, and that for most people (but not me), science and rationality doesn't offer this. The important question is, why do people need this? Fear of death? Need to belong to a tribe? Whats important: "social" or "spiritual"? Until we we know this there won't be successful "science based philosophy" (as nnq termed it) that avoids the pathological aspects of religion.
        • jiggy2011 14y ago
          Since scientific understanding (including the understanding of understanding) changes relatively frequently (at least compared to religion) I strongly suspect that any "science based philosophy" will eventually devolve into a cult.
          • nnq 14y ago
            If you base it on scientific facts, yes. But actually science is not about facts but about a method of understanding that produces "factual knowledge". Yeah, as you say, even the understanding of understanding evolves, but we just need to learn to "design things that evolve"... and I think it's orders of magnitudes easier to do this "in the world of pure memes" with something like a philosophy, than in the physical world with something like a self-replicating mutating robot. Yeah, just as with such a robot you'd have to give up things like "control over it", with such a philosophy-religion you may have to give up things like "moral values", but that's ok imho, since you can have those separately... The only thing that makes a "cult" "bad" is lack of freedom and flexibility, and this is "by design" for most cults.
            • jiggy2011 14y ago
              This sounds a lot like what we currently call "philosophy"
        • nnq 14y ago
          People need a "common ground" of "spirituality". Even if you say "but not for me", I'm sure that (unless you're either an aspie or a psychopath :) ) you also get some sort of "mystical/spiritual understanding", probably from science and technology itself (like I do, and it took me years to understand that part of the "hard drug" that drives me to technology was actually a very "mystical" thing)... you can replace "mystical/spiritual" with "imagination/intuition of something more than self" if it's more atuned to the vocabulary of your mind. But this sort of thing satisfies a psychological need in a way that doesn't bring people together, while classical social religions, in their retarded and distorting way, actually bring people together. That's why I think there's an "untapped religious market" in the middle of these things :)
      • jiggy2011 14y ago
        I don't know, spirituality would seem specifically require some sort of "spirit" or supernatural, though there are perhaps other definitions. I'm not religious and don't spend much time pondering science, though I do at least try to stretch myself mentally in various ways but solving a puzzle of some kind seems like a far cry from religion.
        • nnq 14y ago
          I like the more general definitions like: social scientists have defined spirituality as the search for "the sacred," where "the sacred" is broadly defined as that which is set apart from the ordinary and worthy of veneration. For myself,I like to think in terms of the known (intuitive known vs theoretical rational known vs empirical rational known) vs. the unknown (known unknown vs unknown unknown) and so on, rather than natural vs supernatural, since everything can be natural if you have a less contrived definition of nature. I consider a tough scientific or technical or technical problem enlightening because it shows you the limits of your mind and how much you don't know or don't understand - this makes you more humble and teaches you to accept that you will always be surrounded by deep "mysteries" that you will never have the resources to comprehend. And otoh, when you finally solve a hard and deep problem that brought you to the limits of your mind, you realized that even the limits were an illusion and that your mind could maybe even comprehend the entire universe. For me it's easy and natural to find spirituality in science and technology, but I understand that people like me are basically "anomalies" and I understand other people's need for the more "magical" type of spirituality and for having it as a social thing (and I know there are other types of "anomalies" as well, not in bad sense - the one who can just take science and understanding "as is" with no need for spirituality). This is why I think there is huge unsatisfied market for all sorts of very different "spiritual products"!
      • phryk 14y ago
        I don't think we need a spiritual element in our life, rather a "knowledge", concept or other form of understanding of what our place in the world/universe is. But even with that I can't speak for everyone. What is nice about churches are rituals. My need for rituals is satisfied with raves, awesome atmosphere with a lot of friendly, tolerant people who are just enjoying themselves and the music with everyone.
    • zorked 14y ago
      If they did they could just stay in churches. If people are moving away from churches, maybe there is no such need.
  • mich41 14y ago
    Islam. Muslims are often serious about their religion (encouraging converts) and they actually procreate.
• fijal 14y ago
  They're dying in Europe. Not much anywhere else, especially in places like Africa or Asia. Anyway, the article states it, did you read it?
  • chad_oliver 14y ago
    Christianity is also dying in New Zealand and Australia -- and I say that as a New Zealand christian.
• pfortuny 14y ago
  Hi. Just a pointer: if you think the child rape scandals are just a thing of today and that they will cause the Catholic Church to disappear, you need to re-evaluate your history. A mere skimming through "Brideshead Revisited" will show you that we Catholics are quite used to priests & bishops behaving awfully. Not thay I condone them. Just that you know. On the other hand, what do you mean by "dying"? Do not mistake your expectations/subjective views of the world for reality. They tend to differ. For everybody. Me too.
  • phryk 14y ago
    With child rape scandals I was merely referring to the wording "sex scandals", which seemed very euphemistic. With the churches/religion dying I mean that atheists are the fastest growing 'camp' concerning religion. The catholic church might not die within the next 5 years, but I'm pretty sure will fade into non-existence. Every statement about the future is speculation of course.
    • pfortuny 14y ago
      I now understand your all caps above, point taken.