7 ms·

Management tips for the Catholic church

41 points by tebuevd 14y ago

qwertzlcoatl 14y ago
Religion in general and Christianity in particular, thrives and flourishes on the soil of human fears, whether [originally] of unexplainable natural phenomena, of ignorance or of gullibility. Given these premises, like secular empires of old, the Roman Catholic Church, already in the "winter" of its existence, is fated to die. A small percentage of educated Catholics (through birth) care about the medieval doctrines of old men in the Vatican, and very few live by them. The media frenzy about the forthcoming elections of a new CEO give the wrong impression that all this is a truly important occasion.
- nnq 14y ago
  > thrives and flourishes on the soil of human fears ...it doesn't have to be this way! Educated, healthy and secure individuals also need a form of "socialized spirituality", but there is no good product on the market for them. If traditional religions like Catholicism would start marketing themselves to the "educated, healthy and secure", I believe they could even have some success. Granted, their "product" is not for this market, but it might be more flexible than they think. Historically speaking, Christianity has been quite a flexible "religious product", they even had "soldier monks that killed for God" in the time of the crusades, and although this backfired a bit (ok, more than a bit...), it showed that the Christian faith is at its core very flexible and adaptable. (disclaimer: I'm not promoting any personal view here, I'm personally more in the market for "far eastern spiritual goods" than flavors of Christianity...)
  - Udo 14y ago
    I think the fundamental misunderstanding here is not about replacing fear and suppression as a motivation for religion, but whether a belief in the supernatural (and a service structure that caters to it) is necessary in the first place. From my early childhood on, it's one of these things that made me doubt if I'm even part of the same species as most people. I remember a vivid discussion with the local priest about why I stopped coming to bible class (I had only been there once or twice because my parents thought I was missing out on something). The guy said the problem was not that I was rejecting his faith in particular, what made him think I was really sick and disturbed was the fact that I didn't see why anyone would have a religion at all.
    - whoreallyknows 14y ago
      At risk of posting something rather personal, I was led to believe in the existence of God by the tradition of ratiocination in works by Christian authors such as St. Augustine, as well as pre-Christian philosophers such as Plato and Confucius. That said, while I do not think your characterization of religion as anti-science really holds, I agree it is an accurate depiction of the way religion tends to play into contemporary American politics.
- pfortuny 14y ago
  You certainly have little knowledge of Christians personally, or the ones you know are a bit weird. On the other hand, if you read a little history, Crhistianity was prime for extincion much more than today in the first and second centuries (ever heard of Gnosticism? That ruled in those days, that was the 'real knowledge')... In any case, do not let other people's prejudices conform your thoughts. It is bad for your health.
- bdunbar 14y ago
  > Given these premises, Your premises are faulty. But that's a lengthy and tedious discussion, probably not suitable for this post. Instead, I invite you to visit your local parish with an open mind, celebrate Mass. I suggest you'll find not ignorance or fear but knowledge and joy. Also: coffee and donuts afterwards.
  - qwertzlcoatl 14y ago
    Joy, I bet. Knowledge? That's rather subjective.
    - nivla 14y ago
      To nitpick: Why is Knowledge subjective? Knowledge just means familiarity with something. Now, whether it can be productive for you or not is subjective. For Example: Say, you visit an ancient Mayan temple, learn about their customs and how they performed their rituals. You may or may not be able to take something out of it and enhance your personal life but certainly knowing in detail about it gave you a better position to make that judgement.
      - qwertzlcoatl 14y ago
        You are right for nitpicking. If the term knowledge was meant to be literal and knowledge is not bound to be measurable or precise, of course I can find knowledge with a local parish. Or a local bum. Or a local check-out girl. Or a shaman along the amazon river. I was born into a strict catholic environment, so it's not solely prejudice when I judge Christianity.
joelmichael 14y ago
At the time Richard Williamson had his excommunication removed, the Vatican did not know he was a Holocaust denier. His ordination was never approved by the Vatican in the first place, rather he was ordained in the heretical organization SSPX, which was why he was excommunicated. The reason Benedict removed these excommunications was to restore peace with the ultra-traditionalists who reject the Second Vatican Council, in much the same way Catholics have been working to restore peace with other Christians who do not accept the Catholic orthodoxy. Such ecumenism is usually viewed as progress, but anti-Catholic critics have continually tried to present this as if Benedict condones Holocaust denial, which is disingenuous, as he has condemned those views and suspended Williamson's episcopal authority until he recants. The decision not to meet with the singing priest was not entirely "bad business" because by condoning clergy who perform pop-star renditions of the Mass you isolate the many more conventional Catholics who prefer some solemnity in their liturgy, and find such shows disrespectful to a sacred institution. There have been many such abuses since the Novus Ordo Mass began and Benedict had been trying to tighten up on them. Although the author seems to be suggesting that the Vatican start a bank for the sake of humor, there actually is a Vatican Bank, the Institute for Works of Religion. (Edit: I misread)
- DavidSJ 14y ago
  He was suggesting the Vatican get out of the bank business, not enter it.
phryk 14y ago
"auguring well for the future" Are you kidding me? Religion at large, especially the churches are dying… Also with "sex scandals" they mean [child] RAPE scandals, right?
- nnq 14y ago
  The churches are dying very slowly and they are leaving behind a huge void that will have to filled somehow (hint: science or science education is not the thing to fill it with... maybe an evolved "science based philosophy" could but I don't know). And it's very interesting to see what kind of "spiritual products" will fill this market void ...hopefully less toxic ones.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    does it need to be "spiritual" based, or is the community aspect that is important? In other words do you think there is some amount of the population who fundamentally require spiritual belief of some kind in order to be happy?
    - nnq 14y ago
      I actually believe we all need some kind of "spiritual" element if our life, it's a basic psychological necessity. Some of us can get this in a "disguised" form from pondering deep scientific questions or working on complicated problems that actually bring the mind to its limits and provide it with some "glimpse of the beyond". But I do believe that a large percent of the populations also needs some form of "socialized spirituality", and this is what traditional religions offer.
      - andyjohnson0 14y ago
        "But I do believe that a large percent of the populations also needs some form of "socialized spirituality", and this is what traditional religions offer." I think you're right, and that for most people (but not me), science and rationality doesn't offer this. The important question is, why do people need this? Fear of death? Need to belong to a tribe? Whats important: "social" or "spiritual"? Until we we know this there won't be successful "science based philosophy" (as nnq termed it) that avoids the pathological aspects of religion.
pfortuny 14y ago
Certainly the economist needs funny and awesome headings for their articles. Man.
TheShadowFog 14y ago
It's like I'm really on /r/atheism!
bdunbar 14y ago
The Roman church has been around for two thousand years. The lifespan of your average publicly traded company is what .. a decade? Advising the Vatican to change everything based on the listed problems is like telling Bezos he needs to overhaul Amazon based on shenanigans that happened yesterday. This might be the right thing to do. Or it might not be. Mr. Bezos would be advised to study the matter for a few days before taking action.
leephillips 14y ago
There is a surprising amount of euphemistic handwringing in the comments here. I can't do better than Sam Harris: "It is no exaggeration to say that for decades (if not centuries) the Vatican has met the formal definition of a criminal organization, devoted not to gambling, prostitution, drugs, or any other venial sin, but to the sexual enslavement of children." The essay from which this is extracted is worth reading: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/brin http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/brin

41 points by tebuevd 14y ago

Religion in general and Christianity in particular, thrives and flourishes on the soil of human fears, whether [originally] of unexplainable natural phenomena, of ignorance or of gullibility. Given these premises, like secular empires of old, the Roman Catholic Church, already in the "winter" of its existence, is fated to die. A small percentage of educated Catholics (through birth) care about the medieval doctrines of old men in the Vatican, and very few live by them. The media frenzy about the forthcoming elections of a new CEO give the wrong impression that all this is a truly important occasion.

nnq 14y ago
> thrives and flourishes on the soil of human fears ...it doesn't have to be this way! Educated, healthy and secure individuals also need a form of "socialized spirituality", but there is no good product on the market for them. If traditional religions like Catholicism would start marketing themselves to the "educated, healthy and secure", I believe they could even have some success. Granted, their "product" is not for this market, but it might be more flexible than they think. Historically speaking, Christianity has been quite a flexible "religious product", they even had "soldier monks that killed for God" in the time of the crusades, and although this backfired a bit (ok, more than a bit...), it showed that the Christian faith is at its core very flexible and adaptable. (disclaimer: I'm not promoting any personal view here, I'm personally more in the market for "far eastern spiritual goods" than flavors of Christianity...)
- Udo 14y ago
  I think the fundamental misunderstanding here is not about replacing fear and suppression as a motivation for religion, but whether a belief in the supernatural (and a service structure that caters to it) is necessary in the first place. From my early childhood on, it's one of these things that made me doubt if I'm even part of the same species as most people. I remember a vivid discussion with the local priest about why I stopped coming to bible class (I had only been there once or twice because my parents thought I was missing out on something). The guy said the problem was not that I was rejecting his faith in particular, what made him think I was really sick and disturbed was the fact that I didn't see why anyone would have a religion at all.
  - whoreallyknows 14y ago
    At risk of posting something rather personal, I was led to believe in the existence of God by the tradition of ratiocination in works by Christian authors such as St. Augustine, as well as pre-Christian philosophers such as Plato and Confucius. That said, while I do not think your characterization of religion as anti-science really holds, I agree it is an accurate depiction of the way religion tends to play into contemporary American politics.
pfortuny 14y ago
You certainly have little knowledge of Christians personally, or the ones you know are a bit weird. On the other hand, if you read a little history, Crhistianity was prime for extincion much more than today in the first and second centuries (ever heard of Gnosticism? That ruled in those days, that was the 'real knowledge')... In any case, do not let other people's prejudices conform your thoughts. It is bad for your health.
bdunbar 14y ago
> Given these premises, Your premises are faulty. But that's a lengthy and tedious discussion, probably not suitable for this post. Instead, I invite you to visit your local parish with an open mind, celebrate Mass. I suggest you'll find not ignorance or fear but knowledge and joy. Also: coffee and donuts afterwards.
- qwertzlcoatl 14y ago
  Joy, I bet. Knowledge? That's rather subjective.
  - nivla 14y ago
    To nitpick: Why is Knowledge subjective? Knowledge just means familiarity with something. Now, whether it can be productive for you or not is subjective. For Example: Say, you visit an ancient Mayan temple, learn about their customs and how they performed their rituals. You may or may not be able to take something out of it and enhance your personal life but certainly knowing in detail about it gave you a better position to make that judgement.
    - qwertzlcoatl 14y ago
      You are right for nitpicking. If the term knowledge was meant to be literal and knowledge is not bound to be measurable or precise, of course I can find knowledge with a local parish. Or a local bum. Or a local check-out girl. Or a shaman along the amazon river. I was born into a strict catholic environment, so it's not solely prejudice when I judge Christianity.

joelmichael 14y ago

At the time Richard Williamson had his excommunication removed, the Vatican did not know he was a Holocaust denier. His ordination was never approved by the Vatican in the first place, rather he was ordained in the heretical organization SSPX, which was why he was excommunicated. The reason Benedict removed these excommunications was to restore peace with the ultra-traditionalists who reject the Second Vatican Council, in much the same way Catholics have been working to restore peace with other Christians who do not accept the Catholic orthodoxy. Such ecumenism is usually viewed as progress, but anti-Catholic critics have continually tried to present this as if Benedict condones Holocaust denial, which is disingenuous, as he has condemned those views and suspended Williamson's episcopal authority until he recants. The decision not to meet with the singing priest was not entirely "bad business" because by condoning clergy who perform pop-star renditions of the Mass you isolate the many more conventional Catholics who prefer some solemnity in their liturgy, and find such shows disrespectful to a sacred institution. There have been many such abuses since the Novus Ordo Mass began and Benedict had been trying to tighten up on them. Although the author seems to be suggesting that the Vatican start a bank for the sake of humor, there actually is a Vatican Bank, the Institute for Works of Religion. (Edit: I misread)

DavidSJ 14y ago
He was suggesting the Vatican get out of the bank business, not enter it.

phryk 14y ago

"auguring well for the future" Are you kidding me? Religion at large, especially the churches are dying… Also with "sex scandals" they mean [child] RAPE scandals, right?

nnq 14y ago
The churches are dying very slowly and they are leaving behind a huge void that will have to filled somehow (hint: science or science education is not the thing to fill it with... maybe an evolved "science based philosophy" could but I don't know). And it's very interesting to see what kind of "spiritual products" will fill this market void ...hopefully less toxic ones.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  does it need to be "spiritual" based, or is the community aspect that is important? In other words do you think there is some amount of the population who fundamentally require spiritual belief of some kind in order to be happy?
  - nnq 14y ago
    I actually believe we all need some kind of "spiritual" element if our life, it's a basic psychological necessity. Some of us can get this in a "disguised" form from pondering deep scientific questions or working on complicated problems that actually bring the mind to its limits and provide it with some "glimpse of the beyond". But I do believe that a large percent of the populations also needs some form of "socialized spirituality", and this is what traditional religions offer.
    - andyjohnson0 14y ago
      "But I do believe that a large percent of the populations also needs some form of "socialized spirituality", and this is what traditional religions offer." I think you're right, and that for most people (but not me), science and rationality doesn't offer this. The important question is, why do people need this? Fear of death? Need to belong to a tribe? Whats important: "social" or "spiritual"? Until we we know this there won't be successful "science based philosophy" (as nnq termed it) that avoids the pathological aspects of religion.

pfortuny 14y ago

Certainly the economist needs funny and awesome headings for their articles. Man.

TheShadowFog 14y ago

It's like I'm really on /r/atheism!

bdunbar 14y ago

The Roman church has been around for two thousand years. The lifespan of your average publicly traded company is what .. a decade? Advising the Vatican to change everything based on the listed problems is like telling Bezos he needs to overhaul Amazon based on shenanigans that happened yesterday. This might be the right thing to do. Or it might not be. Mr. Bezos would be advised to study the matter for a few days before taking action.

leephillips 14y ago

There is a surprising amount of euphemistic handwringing in the comments here. I can't do better than Sam Harris: "It is no exaggeration to say that for decades (if not centuries) the Vatican has met the formal definition of a criminal organization, devoted not to gambling, prostitution, drugs, or any other venial sin, but to the sexual enslavement of children." The essay from which this is extracted is worth reading: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/brin http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/brin