10 ms·

Software Development Is Bad For Your Health

144 points by aliston 14y ago

LoganCale 14y ago
I was getting a lot of the negative side effects of sitting at a computer all day over the past few years, and I made several changes that have really helped, including: hiking once to twice a week, switching positions regularly between sitting at a desk, reclining on a couch, and standing, and making sure to move around regularly through the day, avoiding those long periods of sitting still for hours. The constant headache and random pains I was having have faded.
ironchef 14y ago
Another option which allows one to sit and keep the core engaged are things like a the swopper chair or exercise/swiss/balance balls. Because of the nature of the subtle movements, your hip flexors are engaged often (as long as you don't completely slouch on them).
rartichoke 14y ago
Good tips. Also I think it's really important to get up and walk around every few hours if you're sitting. If your boss won't allow you to do this then seriously consider quitting. Your personal health is way more important than some job where you're taking orders from someone who won't even give you 10min to walk around.
henrik_w 14y ago
Great to see ergonomics issues getting attention on HN. When you ignore (or are unaware of) ergonomic issues for years, you can get into serious trouble (like I did). I had been programming for over 10 years without any problems (and without paying any attention to ergonomics), and 7 years ago I got Repetitive Stress Injury (RSI) really bad. I tried many things to get rid of it, but it was very hard to get rid of. The RSI got so bad that I thought I had to give up programming all together. Fortunately I managed to find a combination that worked for me. The most important component was using a break program that made sure I took breaks to rest my arms and hands, and to do some exercises. I also switched to an ergonomic keyboard and mouse. I am now completely recovered, but it really made me realize that we need to pay attention to ergonomics. I've written up my story in more detail here: http://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/ http://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/ In addition to what I mention in my post, I am now also using a height-adjustable desk (like the OP). It's really good to be able to switch between sitting and standing. If you are like me for the first 10 years of my career (i.e. ignoring ergonomics), consider paying a little bit of attention now, otherwise it may become a problem later on.
- MisterWebz 14y ago
  You wrote the exact same comment here. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4988649 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4988649
  - henrik_w 14y ago
    Well spotted! Just a few minor edits. But I do think it's important to get the message out - it's so easy to ignore, and then you can end up with real problems and real pain for a long time.
  - KurtMueller 14y ago
    Better that he repeats himself a lot then to mention it only once. It was the first time I saw this comment and as somebody who's developing aching wrists and fingers, I'm glad I came across it.
  - scotch_drinker 14y ago
    Both links are about posture thus making his comment relevant to both. If you mention something to someone concerning something you've done, do you never mention it again even with a different audience? The bigger question is "Why shouldn't he say the same thing?" It's not like he's spamming the front page with links. He has an experience that might be applicable to people who did not see the first link (like me, I come to HN multiple times a day but did not see the previous link or comment). Pointing this out seems akin to hanging out with a friend in multiple social settings and when he tells a story you have heard before but the group hasn't, you stop him and tell him he's told that before.
- AJ007 14y ago
  I was in a similar position. I started using computers at a young age (around 7) and by my early 20s had debilitating RSI. At one point I couldn't hold a mouse for much more than 15 minutes. I would wake up in the morning with both of my arms completely numb. I "solved" that problem by going through probably $5,000 worth of ergonomic keyboards and chairs. I still experienced severe wrist pain, finally peaking out in 2010 where the pain and numbness was continuous. I assumed incorrectly that I had irreversible nerve damage. Unrelated to this I started doing upper body strength training. Besides going from not having done a pushup in years to doing hand stand pushups I can now sit at my computer for 12 hour stretches with zero pain. By the way, this was about 3 weeks of training before the pain vanished. Over the past few years I've had brief pain a handful of times, that went away quickly. Now whenever I start developing any sort of problem I revert whatever piece of my lifestyle that is out of balance back to its normal state. I wish I had figured this out a decade ago.
ArchD 14y ago
The title is hyped and inaccurate. It's not software development that's bad for health. It's the bad sitting posture and that's not essential to software development.
- aliston 14y ago
  It's true that the title might be a little hyped. However, the most interesting thing I learned was that improving sitting posture alone will not alleviate standing posture problems.
TallboyOne 14y ago
The article isn't loading, but on a related note I just had a brief discussion about standing desks on my site, and finally bought a Geek Desk. If you are wanting to buy one I list 3 good brands here, and also my warnings about them (below) if you are tall. I'm so excited for it to come in the mail it makes me sick. http://pineapple.io/discussion/standing-desks http://pineapple.io/discussion/standing-desks
kokey 14y ago
Internal Server Error It seems like writing about ergonomics is bad for web servers ;-)
- fldrog 14y ago
  500: Bummer...I was so curious about it..
  - pwr 14y ago
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.alexmedearis.com%2Fsoftware-development-is-bad-for-your-health-and-what-you-can-do-about-it%2F&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:de:official&client=firefox-a http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%... google cache to the rescue
- aliston 14y ago
  Didn't expect so much traffic! Here's a cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.alexmedearis.com/why-software-development-destroys-your-health-and-what-you-can-do-about-it/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...
  - bluepanda_ 14y ago
    Nice move!
- adam-f 14y ago
  Hackernews is bad for your server's health?
brunnsbe 14y ago
I have both a standing desk at work and a special saddle that I can sit on and use it on every chair: http://www.humantool.fi/english/ http://www.humantool.fi/english/ The idea with the saddle is that it is so unbalanced that you have to correct your position with small movements all the time.
djb_hackernews 14y ago
Anyone have experience with eye issues? I've seen Ophthalmologists and my vision is perfect, but I am constantly in discomfort/ border line pain and it's been like this for over 2 years. I know it's due to computer use but various "therapies" don't seem to be making a difference. Would love to hear your experiences. Edit: I've gotten some great responses below. In case it helps anyone here is what I do to help myself: * lower the brightness of displays as low as possible * make sure I am looking down at any screens * fish oil supplements * I wear these ridiculous yellow tinted motorcycle sunglasses (motorcycle sunglasses are padded, trapping moisture) * avoid overhead fluorescent lighting
- analyst74 14y ago
  Do your eyes also feel very dry? If you already have dry eyes, starring at computer will make it worse. I had similar problem for a while, until I started to force myself to drink lot of water at the office, and humidifier at home. Of course, this is just one of the possible causes.
  - Evbn 14y ago
    And caffeine dehydrates you
- colanderman 14y ago
  I mitigated this issue buy purchasing a pair of reading glasses (+0.5 diopter; I have perfect vision). When I feel eye strain set in, I pop on the glasses, which sets the focal point of my monitor further away, allowing my eyes to relax a bit. Vice-versa if I'm already wearing the glasses.
- nzonbi 14y ago
  That sometimes happens to me, after doing 100+ hours/week, for some months straight :). The best solution is to get away of the computer, as much as possible. Other things that can help: - Have good ambient light. Don't look at monitors in the dark. - Adjust the monitor backlight/bright to as low as possible, while it still looks good. - Take short rests often. Every ~40 minutes, get away of the computer. Look at a distant point in the horizon for a couple of minutes.
danso 14y ago
I can only speak from limited personal experience, but I don't know any programmers/developers with carpal tunnel syndrome (though they may have other issues), but I know plenty of other office worker friends who do have it. I've never had it despite all the time I spend at a laptop or a computer. For my own part, I'm not someone who crunches at the keyboard for sustained periods of time, and I regularly switch up between mouse and trackpad and trackball. But I wonder if for non-hackers, the reliance on the mouse and, in my opinion, extremely inefficient computer operating methods, is a factor in how a standard office worker can get CTS even though they spend less time at a computer than your average professional developer.
- davidroberts 14y ago
  When I was working as a Japanese to English translator, I started getting carpal. Switching to Dvorak keyboard solved the problem, with the added bonus that I could type 10 WPM faster after six months of getting used to it.
- to3m 14y ago
  I've known a couple with carpal tunnel syndrome. But even if you exclude that, just about every programmer I know over the age of 25 has had some kind of wrist or hand pain at some point. Probably due to the amount of typing and mousing involved. (I fully predict the rebuttal to be that these people are doing it wrong.) In most cases there seems to be no long-term damage, and the injuries in question are probably not terribly serious. It's just harder to rest one wrists or fingers than it is (say) one's knee, ankle or shoulder.
  - ahelwer 14y ago
    I developed a horrible pain in my right wrist at the age of 20, during my first software development internship. Any motion I made with the mouse was torture. I had to start using the mouse with my left hand to do work at all. The pain is gone now, but I take ergonomics quite a bit more seriously. I'm considering getting a split keyboard, although it breaks my heart to have to get rid of my clicky das.
twentysix 14y ago
There was a study conducted a while back which showed that the optimum body-thigh angle for sitting was not 90 degrees but 135 degrees. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6187080.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6187080.stm http://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/media/pressreleases/pr_target.cfm?ID=294 http://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/media/pressreleases/pr_target....
- jedmeyers 14y ago
  The only drawback of a far laid-back position is that the neck might start to hurt.
- mahyarm 14y ago
  I've found the same too in my own personal experience. That and a lot of minor fidgeting and constant changing of postions.
vignesh_vs_in 14y ago
An ergonomic chair is the best investment a developer can do. Am planning to invest in a good ergonomic chair myself, have decided on Herman Miller Mirra chair. Any suggestion on other not so costly chairs?
- martinced 14y ago
  I do way prefer the Aeron over the Mira. The back support on the Mira is better but... Once I've used the Aeron's pellicle mesh (both in the back and on the part you sit on), I simply cannot go back to a chair which doesn't have a pellicle mesh. The Aeron is a bit cheaper and you can find quite some at a bargain price if you're in the U.S. I forked that and $300 or so on a Topre-switch based keyboard (an HHKB Pro 2 but YMMV, some people prefer bigger keyboards -- I'd rather move my hands / fingers as few as possible). Probably that a real split / symmetric keyboard like the Kinesis Advantage or the Maltron are even better (they're using Cherry Mx switches, no Topre).
- s_baby 14y ago
  When these discussions come up people often mention the Steelcase Leap as an equal. Find a local store that sells them and try them all out. For me the major distinguishing point was the lower back support. The cheaper Aeron version would dig into my back while the Leap had some flexibility to it. I'm not sure if the higher end Aeron chair would have been superior with the contouring lower back support but I'm glad I got the Leap over the base Aeron model.
- forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
  No, you don't need expensive chairs for coding, you don't need to "sit down well" because it is not possible or good for you. Do sit for hours in a "correct" posture and you will discover that your body tries to move constantly from it (blood circulation needs your pressure points to change constantly or bruises will appear). Instead of buying expensive things go buy experts book on the area of posture, or better, go talk with expert people in the field. Books like this helped me in the past(I had pain in my back years ago) : http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Free-Back-Solutions-Shoulder/dp/0979303605 http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Free-Back-Solutions-Shoulde... But I assert you that in the area you live there is already lots of good people that could help you. In my area I found a martial arts expert(that won Olympic gold medals when young) that could identify wrong postures from an eye shot. PS: I code mostly standing up and with a high stool.
randyl 14y ago
Along the same lines, I had bad posture for a long time, and always wondered what to do about it. "Stand up straight" was too simplistic, and "do yoga" was too broad. The solution that worked for me came from books by Pete Egoscue. "Health Through Motion", especially: http://www.amazon.com/Egoscue-Method-Health-Through-Motion/dp/0060924306/ http://www.amazon.com/Egoscue-Method-Health-Through-Motion/d... He describes how to analyze posture (once you learn, you see signs of bad posture -- aka muscle imbalances -- in nearly everyone: people at work, at the store, even professional athletes), and then he lists dozens of simple exercises that work to restore your muscle balance. And at some point you'll do an exercise that engages a muscle you haven't used in years, and when that happens, your body feels FANTASTIC!! The books are just the tip of the iceberg, too. There are Egoscue clinics around the country that can take you to advanced levels.
raverbashing 14y ago
About ergonomics, there's several things I don't do (and you shouldn't as well) - Don't use your laptop without a 'docking station' for long. Strain to your neck, back and hand/wrist. A mouse/keyboard and support to keep the screen at eye level does wonders - Don't use a 'moving mouse'. Apple magic trackpad is great. Trackballs are great as well. - Even better, limit the use of a pointing device (if your job allows it, e.g. for anything graphic this is difficult). Today I do most of my work with keyboard alone, even web browsing (the exception is clicking links and buttons)
- arscan 14y ago
  Re browsing: If you use Chrome, give vimium a shot. I never touch my mouse. There are probably other similar plugins, but that one works well for me.
  - twistedanimator 14y ago
    And if you use Firefox, give pentadactyl or vimperator a try.
- dankoss 14y ago
  Any ideas for file manipulation with the keyboard? With long Windows paths there's no way a CLI is going to be faster than moving files around with Explorer, which is not very keyboard friendly. I've looked at alternative file managers and haven't found anything that sticks.
  - subsystem 14y ago
    Tried FAR? http://www.farmanager.com http://www.farmanager.com
    - dankoss 14y ago
      Excellent suggestion, thanks! Trying it out right now.
  - 14y ago
nileshk 14y ago
I can't read the article as the server is not responding, but from what I gather it's about RSI, carpel tunnel, etc. I'd like to present an alternate viewpoint and suggest that RSI is not caused by physical action, such as typing on a computer keyboard or bad posture, but rather it's root cause is psychological (with the understanding that physical things are happening, but they are controlled by your mind). I suggest reading "The Mindbody Prescription" by Dr John E Sarno. Here is one of the better summary of the ideas (in Word doc format): http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc Personally, I have been pain free for over 10 years thanks to this. Here is the story of someone else who cured his RSI pain using this method, it is very similar to what I experienced: http://aaroniba.net/articles/tmp/how-i-cured-my-rsi-pain.html http://aaroniba.net/articles/tmp/how-i-cured-my-rsi-pain.htm...
- zwegner 14y ago
  Same here. It was really quite bad, I had nerve pain 24/7, numbness, soreness, you name it. In fact, when I first learned about TMS, it got worse. I was unemployed, and going through very bad depression, and despite ceasing all computer use, I was still in constant pain. I think my subconscious was just sadistically causing me pain. Anyways, the symptoms disappeared quite suddenly during an LSD trip, weirdly enough. It was one of the most blissful days of my life, just relaxing in nature with some good friends. Still unemployed and depressed, but at least I don't have horrible pain to deal with every day...
josephv 14y ago
I'm one of those crazies that use the Kenesis Advantage for RSI. That and a larger mouse helped me.
- wglb 14y ago
  Fully agree. Use of this keyboard totally reduced very severe hand pain. Also, after an adjustment period, I now type faster.
Dirlewanger 14y ago
Want a solution to 95% of problems associated with sitting 10+ hours/day? Try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI You'll feel worked at the end.
- mhurron 14y ago
  If you're worried about sitting all day, drink more. Water, tea, coffee, anything really. You'll have to go to the bathroom more, that WILL get you out of your chair. Green Tea keeps me moving.
  - jroseattle 14y ago
    Please allow me to prioritize: water, and some tea. Coffee is next on the list. Nothing else that comes pre-packaged will do you one bit of good.
    - AlexandrB 14y ago
      Because of sugar? What about milk, sugarfree soda, or sugarfree juice?
      - jroseattle 14y ago
        I'll let everyone make their own determinations about milk -- I would be a skim-only person, and then only sparingly. But if asked for a recommendation, I would say limit milk intake to much less than water. Sugarfree soda = the devil. Sugarfree juice -- the real stuff -- is probably ok in moderation. However, a good chunk of the health value in fruits comes with the pulps and skins and pithes and the like. Fruit juice is really just a portion of the healthy nutrients one can get from fruit. Moderation is the key, as the glycemic load of fruit juice, even just the squeezed stuff, can really be high. Never mind what all this stuff does to one's dental health, which is harsh (even milk is a culprit.) I simply can't encourage those of us who sit at desks in this job to drink enough water. 64 oz is the recommended minimum a day, but I think it should be higher. Caveat: this works for me, so your mileage may vary.
graeme 14y ago
I had arm trouble while typing for a while, and fixed it. Trigger point therapy was the big one. I had a few spots in my right forearm that were messed up. The therapist jabbed them. It hurt terribly, but then my arm was much better. I'm strong enough that I can now do the same thing to my own arm if I feel it getting tense. Armaid is also a great tool for this. On my left arm, I had something worse. Found a physiotherapist who did MAT (muscle activation technique) and he managed to work out some adhesions in the upper part of my left hand. If you have pain, go see a relevant therapist. There's a decent chance you have some kind of muscle trouble. Note: I saw several non-useful therapists. For muscle adhesion problems, results should be pretty quick. I only needed 1-2 sessions with each of these guys.
edw519 14y ago
My grandfather: Maybe the smartest and most talented person I ever met. Born in 1895 is eastern Europe and as a child never went to school, missed many meals, feared for his safety, and emigrated to the U.S. alone at age 11. Married my grandmother 6 years later and raised 6 children in a 2 room flat during the depression. His entire adulthood: painted buildings with lead-based paint, installed asbestos, smoked cigarettes, and lived in Pittsburgh back when the skies were black with soot all day long. Worked his ass off and suffered and died from emphysema at age 80. Me: I write software in an air-conditioned office, eat delicious healthy food every meal, work out at a fancy gym, and have more money than I know what to do with. I'd say we have it pretty easy.
- csomar 14y ago
  Sure we have it pretty easy but you are making a wrong comparison here. You can't compare the life and health standards of the early 1900 with our health and life standards (at least in the developed world). Things moved for the better not only for Software developers. The right comparison is between you and someone who has achieved the same education/social level in the same period of time.
  - segmondy 14y ago
    You miss the point. His point is that if his grandfather died at 80yrs old. He has a good chance of living up to 80 too.
    - e40 14y ago
      Not necessarily. His grandfather, while breathing and possibly ingesting toxins his entire life, did one thing most programmers do not do: exercise a lot. Yes, I saw the "work out at a fancy gym" part. There is a huge difference between going to the gym a few times a week and doing labor like his grandfather did. My own grandfather did hard manual labor his entire life and drank whisky like a fish until he was in his late 60's. Chewed tobacco his entire life. When he was 88 I saw him working in the back yard and he had muscles that I didn't have at my prime (in my 20's). He died at 95. I walk 4 or more miles a day, 7 days a week, some up steep hills. That's my commute, on the days that I go to work, my exercise when I don't. I really don't expect that I'm simulating my grandfather's level of exercise, but I hope it does something to get me to 95, in as perfect health as my grandfather was when he died.
thomasmeeks 14y ago
Just to toss down what's worked for me in case it helps someone else: I was on the brink of RSI (numbness in the fingers) until I changed to a Kinesis Advantage keyboard, and a trackball mouse (thumb movement). Some lingering issues were cleared up with exercise -- mostly wrist rollers and grip training. I still use a flat keyboard & normal mouse occasionally without issue. Back pain is a little battle, but a good chair (Steelcase Think) is night & day if you're sitting for more than a few hours at a time. Generally I do the best here when I'm not being lazy about my exercise. Squats, deadlifts, weighted sit-ups, etc. all help a ton.
- miloshadzic 14y ago
  Are you on a Mac? Is the kinesis hard to sanely configure for it? I gave up on the MS Natural 4000 for that reason. Also agree that most people here would benefit from a strength training routine.
  - thomasmeeks 14y ago
    I used to be, and the Kinesis works great there. It is a super configurable keyboard. You can swap the definition of any two keys (make enter -> backspace, caps lock -> escape, etc.) The only OS that I've had issues on is Windows. There's a USB3 driver issue there. But I don't program in Windows, so doesn't affect me.
  - toasterlovin 14y ago
    The Kinesis Advantage works fairly well for me on the Mac. You can change key layouts on the keyboard itself (as opposed to the OS) if something isn't to your liking. There is one thing that I missed though: play, pause, ff, volume and brightness controls on the keyboard. I haven't worked out a solution for volume and brightness, but play, pause, and ff I do with keyboard shortcuts through Quicksilver.
    - toasterlovin 14y ago
      Just wanted to clarify: it looks like you _can_ set different key bindings for screen brightness in the Mac's preferences. I can't find similar for volume controls though...
gizzlon 14y ago
FWIW, my biggest wrist and arm problems came from using a "sticky" mouse. As the mouse and pad gets "old" and dirty, there's often a lot of friction when moving the mouse. The mouse should move very easily. (try lightly touching it with you little finger)
mkhalil 14y ago
Not only software developers sit in desks. Most employees in my company aren't software developers. I'm glad this article is one about the physical problems of sitting incorrectly all day, as oppose to the increasing "this isn't good for your health articles", describing software development as a deadly stressfull depressing job that isn't for everyone. If your health is deteriorating due to software development, YOUR DOING IT WRONG! :)
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
coldarchon 14y ago
30 years working with computers and the only thing I got is a lipoma at my right ellbow. Stand up every half hour, raise your arms every 20 mins and take a deep breath every 10 mins.
clintjhill 14y ago
I've been doing CrossFit for a year now. I couldn't articulate enough how it has improved my posture and general fitness. There isn't one particular thing about CrossFit, rather the whole. I'd recommend to anyone.
- tapatio 14y ago
  I'm all for CrossFit as long as it's free. Some people are paying $150 a month. That's just stupid.
  - huherto 14y ago
    Not stupid, they just find something valuable that you don't. May be it is the gym, the trainer, peer pressure or whatever.
  - clintjhill 14y ago
    Technically it's free. Plenty of websites with all sorts of helpful information about programming. But paying to be a part of a box and a small community while working in a competitive environment is worth money. To me at least.
- gavingmiller 14y ago
  Second that. I used to have constant shoulder issues with my mouse arm. As long as I'm being active with my shoulder I'm good. CrossFit, yoga, slack lining, it doesn't matter what you do, but not being physically active is a detriment to your well being. Everyone owns it to themselves to live healthy! For those who want to get started, but don't know how checkout Nerd Fitness: http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/ http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/ I have no ties, only that it's a great place to start learning about how to take care of yourself.
triplesec 14y ago
Don't improve your sitting posture: stand instead! We know about posture, but we're rubbish at it because humans are lazy! More scientists say you should stand or treadmill while working, and I definitely concur. Standing is so much better for you: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20947605 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20947605 and http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/16/AR2010101602903.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10... and http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/business/stand-up-desks-gaining-favor-in-the-workplace.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/business/stand-up-desks-ga...
sejje 14y ago
Alternative titles: Working at the DMV is bad for your health Being a lawyer is bad for your health Working in management is bad for your health Driving for a living is (really) bad for your health etc
tapatio 14y ago
Screw this stuff! My thin GF has anterior pelvic tilt and it looks hot!
noss 14y ago
My problems with shoulder and wrist pains all originate from stressful projects. When you sit entire days with your muscles tense, over and over again, that is when problems start to occur. I can not connect my problems to bad ergonomics, because the way I was sitting in front of my computer all the way up until university years, those were far from ergonomic positions. But if you are relaxed and have fun, you automatically vary your posture and position. Ergonomic chairs and keyboards are only one way to make you be able to endure your stressful work condition a bit longer when you sit there stressed trying to meet deadlines and whatever problems you fight with. The pains will show up, only later. Myself, I often try to wake up from the work, feel my body and if I'm actually stressed. Take a deep breath, see if I can let my arms hang loose and relaxed. If I feel that I'm actually sweaty and have a high pulse, then I need to go for a walk. A good manager that I can bring this up with helps. Also a bit of a fuck-off attitude also helps: My health is so much more valuable than the job and its compensation.

144 points by aliston 14y ago

I was getting a lot of the negative side effects of sitting at a computer all day over the past few years, and I made several changes that have really helped, including: hiking once to twice a week, switching positions regularly between sitting at a desk, reclining on a couch, and standing, and making sure to move around regularly through the day, avoiding those long periods of sitting still for hours. The constant headache and random pains I was having have faded.

ironchef 14y ago

Another option which allows one to sit and keep the core engaged are things like a the swopper chair or exercise/swiss/balance balls. Because of the nature of the subtle movements, your hip flexors are engaged often (as long as you don't completely slouch on them).

rartichoke 14y ago

Good tips. Also I think it's really important to get up and walk around every few hours if you're sitting. If your boss won't allow you to do this then seriously consider quitting. Your personal health is way more important than some job where you're taking orders from someone who won't even give you 10min to walk around.

henrik_w 14y ago

Great to see ergonomics issues getting attention on HN. When you ignore (or are unaware of) ergonomic issues for years, you can get into serious trouble (like I did). I had been programming for over 10 years without any problems (and without paying any attention to ergonomics), and 7 years ago I got Repetitive Stress Injury (RSI) really bad. I tried many things to get rid of it, but it was very hard to get rid of. The RSI got so bad that I thought I had to give up programming all together. Fortunately I managed to find a combination that worked for me. The most important component was using a break program that made sure I took breaks to rest my arms and hands, and to do some exercises. I also switched to an ergonomic keyboard and mouse. I am now completely recovered, but it really made me realize that we need to pay attention to ergonomics. I've written up my story in more detail here: http://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/ http://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/ In addition to what I mention in my post, I am now also using a height-adjustable desk (like the OP). It's really good to be able to switch between sitting and standing. If you are like me for the first 10 years of my career (i.e. ignoring ergonomics), consider paying a little bit of attention now, otherwise it may become a problem later on.

MisterWebz 14y ago
You wrote the exact same comment here. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4988649 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4988649
- henrik_w 14y ago
  Well spotted! Just a few minor edits. But I do think it's important to get the message out - it's so easy to ignore, and then you can end up with real problems and real pain for a long time.
- KurtMueller 14y ago
  Better that he repeats himself a lot then to mention it only once. It was the first time I saw this comment and as somebody who's developing aching wrists and fingers, I'm glad I came across it.
- scotch_drinker 14y ago
  Both links are about posture thus making his comment relevant to both. If you mention something to someone concerning something you've done, do you never mention it again even with a different audience? The bigger question is "Why shouldn't he say the same thing?" It's not like he's spamming the front page with links. He has an experience that might be applicable to people who did not see the first link (like me, I come to HN multiple times a day but did not see the previous link or comment). Pointing this out seems akin to hanging out with a friend in multiple social settings and when he tells a story you have heard before but the group hasn't, you stop him and tell him he's told that before.
AJ007 14y ago
I was in a similar position. I started using computers at a young age (around 7) and by my early 20s had debilitating RSI. At one point I couldn't hold a mouse for much more than 15 minutes. I would wake up in the morning with both of my arms completely numb. I "solved" that problem by going through probably $5,000 worth of ergonomic keyboards and chairs. I still experienced severe wrist pain, finally peaking out in 2010 where the pain and numbness was continuous. I assumed incorrectly that I had irreversible nerve damage. Unrelated to this I started doing upper body strength training. Besides going from not having done a pushup in years to doing hand stand pushups I can now sit at my computer for 12 hour stretches with zero pain. By the way, this was about 3 weeks of training before the pain vanished. Over the past few years I've had brief pain a handful of times, that went away quickly. Now whenever I start developing any sort of problem I revert whatever piece of my lifestyle that is out of balance back to its normal state. I wish I had figured this out a decade ago.

ArchD 14y ago

The title is hyped and inaccurate. It's not software development that's bad for health. It's the bad sitting posture and that's not essential to software development.

aliston 14y ago
It's true that the title might be a little hyped. However, the most interesting thing I learned was that improving sitting posture alone will not alleviate standing posture problems.

TallboyOne 14y ago

The article isn't loading, but on a related note I just had a brief discussion about standing desks on my site, and finally bought a Geek Desk. If you are wanting to buy one I list 3 good brands here, and also my warnings about them (below) if you are tall. I'm so excited for it to come in the mail it makes me sick. http://pineapple.io/discussion/standing-desks http://pineapple.io/discussion/standing-desks

kokey 14y ago

Internal Server Error It seems like writing about ergonomics is bad for web servers ;-)

fldrog 14y ago
500: Bummer...I was so curious about it..
- pwr 14y ago
  http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.alexmedearis.com%2Fsoftware-development-is-bad-for-your-health-and-what-you-can-do-about-it%2F&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:de:official&client=firefox-a http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%... google cache to the rescue
aliston 14y ago
Didn't expect so much traffic! Here's a cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.alexmedearis.com/why-software-development-destroys-your-health-and-what-you-can-do-about-it/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...
- bluepanda_ 14y ago
  Nice move!
adam-f 14y ago
Hackernews is bad for your server's health?

brunnsbe 14y ago

I have both a standing desk at work and a special saddle that I can sit on and use it on every chair: http://www.humantool.fi/english/ http://www.humantool.fi/english/ The idea with the saddle is that it is so unbalanced that you have to correct your position with small movements all the time.

djb_hackernews 14y ago

Anyone have experience with eye issues? I've seen Ophthalmologists and my vision is perfect, but I am constantly in discomfort/ border line pain and it's been like this for over 2 years. I know it's due to computer use but various "therapies" don't seem to be making a difference. Would love to hear your experiences. Edit: I've gotten some great responses below. In case it helps anyone here is what I do to help myself: * lower the brightness of displays as low as possible * make sure I am looking down at any screens * fish oil supplements * I wear these ridiculous yellow tinted motorcycle sunglasses (motorcycle sunglasses are padded, trapping moisture) * avoid overhead fluorescent lighting

analyst74 14y ago
Do your eyes also feel very dry? If you already have dry eyes, starring at computer will make it worse. I had similar problem for a while, until I started to force myself to drink lot of water at the office, and humidifier at home. Of course, this is just one of the possible causes.
- Evbn 14y ago
  And caffeine dehydrates you
colanderman 14y ago
I mitigated this issue buy purchasing a pair of reading glasses (+0.5 diopter; I have perfect vision). When I feel eye strain set in, I pop on the glasses, which sets the focal point of my monitor further away, allowing my eyes to relax a bit. Vice-versa if I'm already wearing the glasses.
nzonbi 14y ago
That sometimes happens to me, after doing 100+ hours/week, for some months straight :). The best solution is to get away of the computer, as much as possible. Other things that can help: - Have good ambient light. Don't look at monitors in the dark. - Adjust the monitor backlight/bright to as low as possible, while it still looks good. - Take short rests often. Every ~40 minutes, get away of the computer. Look at a distant point in the horizon for a couple of minutes.

danso 14y ago

I can only speak from limited personal experience, but I don't know any programmers/developers with carpal tunnel syndrome (though they may have other issues), but I know plenty of other office worker friends who do have it. I've never had it despite all the time I spend at a laptop or a computer. For my own part, I'm not someone who crunches at the keyboard for sustained periods of time, and I regularly switch up between mouse and trackpad and trackball. But I wonder if for non-hackers, the reliance on the mouse and, in my opinion, extremely inefficient computer operating methods, is a factor in how a standard office worker can get CTS even though they spend less time at a computer than your average professional developer.

davidroberts 14y ago
When I was working as a Japanese to English translator, I started getting carpal. Switching to Dvorak keyboard solved the problem, with the added bonus that I could type 10 WPM faster after six months of getting used to it.
to3m 14y ago
I've known a couple with carpal tunnel syndrome. But even if you exclude that, just about every programmer I know over the age of 25 has had some kind of wrist or hand pain at some point. Probably due to the amount of typing and mousing involved. (I fully predict the rebuttal to be that these people are doing it wrong.) In most cases there seems to be no long-term damage, and the injuries in question are probably not terribly serious. It's just harder to rest one wrists or fingers than it is (say) one's knee, ankle or shoulder.
- ahelwer 14y ago
  I developed a horrible pain in my right wrist at the age of 20, during my first software development internship. Any motion I made with the mouse was torture. I had to start using the mouse with my left hand to do work at all. The pain is gone now, but I take ergonomics quite a bit more seriously. I'm considering getting a split keyboard, although it breaks my heart to have to get rid of my clicky das.

twentysix 14y ago

There was a study conducted a while back which showed that the optimum body-thigh angle for sitting was not 90 degrees but 135 degrees. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6187080.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6187080.stm http://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/media/pressreleases/pr_target.cfm?ID=294 http://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/media/pressreleases/pr_target....

jedmeyers 14y ago
The only drawback of a far laid-back position is that the neck might start to hurt.
mahyarm 14y ago
I've found the same too in my own personal experience. That and a lot of minor fidgeting and constant changing of postions.

vignesh_vs_in 14y ago

An ergonomic chair is the best investment a developer can do. Am planning to invest in a good ergonomic chair myself, have decided on Herman Miller Mirra chair. Any suggestion on other not so costly chairs?

martinced 14y ago
I do way prefer the Aeron over the Mira. The back support on the Mira is better but... Once I've used the Aeron's pellicle mesh (both in the back and on the part you sit on), I simply cannot go back to a chair which doesn't have a pellicle mesh. The Aeron is a bit cheaper and you can find quite some at a bargain price if you're in the U.S. I forked that and $300 or so on a Topre-switch based keyboard (an HHKB Pro 2 but YMMV, some people prefer bigger keyboards -- I'd rather move my hands / fingers as few as possible). Probably that a real split / symmetric keyboard like the Kinesis Advantage or the Maltron are even better (they're using Cherry Mx switches, no Topre).
s_baby 14y ago
When these discussions come up people often mention the Steelcase Leap as an equal. Find a local store that sells them and try them all out. For me the major distinguishing point was the lower back support. The cheaper Aeron version would dig into my back while the Leap had some flexibility to it. I'm not sure if the higher end Aeron chair would have been superior with the contouring lower back support but I'm glad I got the Leap over the base Aeron model.
forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
No, you don't need expensive chairs for coding, you don't need to "sit down well" because it is not possible or good for you. Do sit for hours in a "correct" posture and you will discover that your body tries to move constantly from it (blood circulation needs your pressure points to change constantly or bruises will appear). Instead of buying expensive things go buy experts book on the area of posture, or better, go talk with expert people in the field. Books like this helped me in the past(I had pain in my back years ago) : http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Free-Back-Solutions-Shoulder/dp/0979303605 http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Free-Back-Solutions-Shoulde... But I assert you that in the area you live there is already lots of good people that could help you. In my area I found a martial arts expert(that won Olympic gold medals when young) that could identify wrong postures from an eye shot. PS: I code mostly standing up and with a high stool.

randyl 14y ago

Along the same lines, I had bad posture for a long time, and always wondered what to do about it. "Stand up straight" was too simplistic, and "do yoga" was too broad. The solution that worked for me came from books by Pete Egoscue. "Health Through Motion", especially: http://www.amazon.com/Egoscue-Method-Health-Through-Motion/dp/0060924306/ http://www.amazon.com/Egoscue-Method-Health-Through-Motion/d... He describes how to analyze posture (once you learn, you see signs of bad posture -- aka muscle imbalances -- in nearly everyone: people at work, at the store, even professional athletes), and then he lists dozens of simple exercises that work to restore your muscle balance. And at some point you'll do an exercise that engages a muscle you haven't used in years, and when that happens, your body feels FANTASTIC!! The books are just the tip of the iceberg, too. There are Egoscue clinics around the country that can take you to advanced levels.

raverbashing 14y ago

About ergonomics, there's several things I don't do (and you shouldn't as well) - Don't use your laptop without a 'docking station' for long. Strain to your neck, back and hand/wrist. A mouse/keyboard and support to keep the screen at eye level does wonders - Don't use a 'moving mouse'. Apple magic trackpad is great. Trackballs are great as well. - Even better, limit the use of a pointing device (if your job allows it, e.g. for anything graphic this is difficult). Today I do most of my work with keyboard alone, even web browsing (the exception is clicking links and buttons)

arscan 14y ago
Re browsing: If you use Chrome, give vimium a shot. I never touch my mouse. There are probably other similar plugins, but that one works well for me.
- twistedanimator 14y ago
  And if you use Firefox, give pentadactyl or vimperator a try.
dankoss 14y ago
Any ideas for file manipulation with the keyboard? With long Windows paths there's no way a CLI is going to be faster than moving files around with Explorer, which is not very keyboard friendly. I've looked at alternative file managers and haven't found anything that sticks.
- subsystem 14y ago
  Tried FAR? http://www.farmanager.com http://www.farmanager.com
  - dankoss 14y ago
    Excellent suggestion, thanks! Trying it out right now.
- 14y ago

nileshk 14y ago

I can't read the article as the server is not responding, but from what I gather it's about RSI, carpel tunnel, etc. I'd like to present an alternate viewpoint and suggest that RSI is not caused by physical action, such as typing on a computer keyboard or bad posture, but rather it's root cause is psychological (with the understanding that physical things are happening, but they are controlled by your mind). I suggest reading "The Mindbody Prescription" by Dr John E Sarno. Here is one of the better summary of the ideas (in Word doc format): http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc Personally, I have been pain free for over 10 years thanks to this. Here is the story of someone else who cured his RSI pain using this method, it is very similar to what I experienced: http://aaroniba.net/articles/tmp/how-i-cured-my-rsi-pain.html http://aaroniba.net/articles/tmp/how-i-cured-my-rsi-pain.htm...

zwegner 14y ago
Same here. It was really quite bad, I had nerve pain 24/7, numbness, soreness, you name it. In fact, when I first learned about TMS, it got worse. I was unemployed, and going through very bad depression, and despite ceasing all computer use, I was still in constant pain. I think my subconscious was just sadistically causing me pain. Anyways, the symptoms disappeared quite suddenly during an LSD trip, weirdly enough. It was one of the most blissful days of my life, just relaxing in nature with some good friends. Still unemployed and depressed, but at least I don't have horrible pain to deal with every day...

josephv 14y ago

I'm one of those crazies that use the Kenesis Advantage for RSI. That and a larger mouse helped me.

wglb 14y ago
Fully agree. Use of this keyboard totally reduced very severe hand pain. Also, after an adjustment period, I now type faster.

Dirlewanger 14y ago

Want a solution to 95% of problems associated with sitting 10+ hours/day? Try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI You'll feel worked at the end.

mhurron 14y ago
If you're worried about sitting all day, drink more. Water, tea, coffee, anything really. You'll have to go to the bathroom more, that WILL get you out of your chair. Green Tea keeps me moving.
- jroseattle 14y ago
  Please allow me to prioritize: water, and some tea. Coffee is next on the list. Nothing else that comes pre-packaged will do you one bit of good.
  - AlexandrB 14y ago
    Because of sugar? What about milk, sugarfree soda, or sugarfree juice?
    - jroseattle 14y ago
      I'll let everyone make their own determinations about milk -- I would be a skim-only person, and then only sparingly. But if asked for a recommendation, I would say limit milk intake to much less than water. Sugarfree soda = the devil. Sugarfree juice -- the real stuff -- is probably ok in moderation. However, a good chunk of the health value in fruits comes with the pulps and skins and pithes and the like. Fruit juice is really just a portion of the healthy nutrients one can get from fruit. Moderation is the key, as the glycemic load of fruit juice, even just the squeezed stuff, can really be high. Never mind what all this stuff does to one's dental health, which is harsh (even milk is a culprit.) I simply can't encourage those of us who sit at desks in this job to drink enough water. 64 oz is the recommended minimum a day, but I think it should be higher. Caveat: this works for me, so your mileage may vary.

graeme 14y ago

I had arm trouble while typing for a while, and fixed it. Trigger point therapy was the big one. I had a few spots in my right forearm that were messed up. The therapist jabbed them. It hurt terribly, but then my arm was much better. I'm strong enough that I can now do the same thing to my own arm if I feel it getting tense. Armaid is also a great tool for this. On my left arm, I had something worse. Found a physiotherapist who did MAT (muscle activation technique) and he managed to work out some adhesions in the upper part of my left hand. If you have pain, go see a relevant therapist. There's a decent chance you have some kind of muscle trouble. Note: I saw several non-useful therapists. For muscle adhesion problems, results should be pretty quick. I only needed 1-2 sessions with each of these guys.

edw519 14y ago

My grandfather: Maybe the smartest and most talented person I ever met. Born in 1895 is eastern Europe and as a child never went to school, missed many meals, feared for his safety, and emigrated to the U.S. alone at age 11. Married my grandmother 6 years later and raised 6 children in a 2 room flat during the depression. His entire adulthood: painted buildings with lead-based paint, installed asbestos, smoked cigarettes, and lived in Pittsburgh back when the skies were black with soot all day long. Worked his ass off and suffered and died from emphysema at age 80. Me: I write software in an air-conditioned office, eat delicious healthy food every meal, work out at a fancy gym, and have more money than I know what to do with. I'd say we have it pretty easy.

csomar 14y ago
Sure we have it pretty easy but you are making a wrong comparison here. You can't compare the life and health standards of the early 1900 with our health and life standards (at least in the developed world). Things moved for the better not only for Software developers. The right comparison is between you and someone who has achieved the same education/social level in the same period of time.
- segmondy 14y ago
  You miss the point. His point is that if his grandfather died at 80yrs old. He has a good chance of living up to 80 too.
  - e40 14y ago
    Not necessarily. His grandfather, while breathing and possibly ingesting toxins his entire life, did one thing most programmers do not do: exercise a lot. Yes, I saw the "work out at a fancy gym" part. There is a huge difference between going to the gym a few times a week and doing labor like his grandfather did. My own grandfather did hard manual labor his entire life and drank whisky like a fish until he was in his late 60's. Chewed tobacco his entire life. When he was 88 I saw him working in the back yard and he had muscles that I didn't have at my prime (in my 20's). He died at 95. I walk 4 or more miles a day, 7 days a week, some up steep hills. That's my commute, on the days that I go to work, my exercise when I don't. I really don't expect that I'm simulating my grandfather's level of exercise, but I hope it does something to get me to 95, in as perfect health as my grandfather was when he died.

thomasmeeks 14y ago

Just to toss down what's worked for me in case it helps someone else: I was on the brink of RSI (numbness in the fingers) until I changed to a Kinesis Advantage keyboard, and a trackball mouse (thumb movement). Some lingering issues were cleared up with exercise -- mostly wrist rollers and grip training. I still use a flat keyboard & normal mouse occasionally without issue. Back pain is a little battle, but a good chair (Steelcase Think) is night & day if you're sitting for more than a few hours at a time. Generally I do the best here when I'm not being lazy about my exercise. Squats, deadlifts, weighted sit-ups, etc. all help a ton.

miloshadzic 14y ago
Are you on a Mac? Is the kinesis hard to sanely configure for it? I gave up on the MS Natural 4000 for that reason. Also agree that most people here would benefit from a strength training routine.
- thomasmeeks 14y ago
  I used to be, and the Kinesis works great there. It is a super configurable keyboard. You can swap the definition of any two keys (make enter -> backspace, caps lock -> escape, etc.) The only OS that I've had issues on is Windows. There's a USB3 driver issue there. But I don't program in Windows, so doesn't affect me.
- toasterlovin 14y ago
  The Kinesis Advantage works fairly well for me on the Mac. You can change key layouts on the keyboard itself (as opposed to the OS) if something isn't to your liking. There is one thing that I missed though: play, pause, ff, volume and brightness controls on the keyboard. I haven't worked out a solution for volume and brightness, but play, pause, and ff I do with keyboard shortcuts through Quicksilver.
  - toasterlovin 14y ago
    Just wanted to clarify: it looks like you _can_ set different key bindings for screen brightness in the Mac's preferences. I can't find similar for volume controls though...

gizzlon 14y ago

FWIW, my biggest wrist and arm problems came from using a "sticky" mouse. As the mouse and pad gets "old" and dirty, there's often a lot of friction when moving the mouse. The mouse should move very easily. (try lightly touching it with you little finger)

mkhalil 14y ago

Not only software developers sit in desks. Most employees in my company aren't software developers. I'm glad this article is one about the physical problems of sitting incorrectly all day, as oppose to the increasing "this isn't good for your health articles", describing software development as a deadly stressfull depressing job that isn't for everyone. If your health is deteriorating due to software development, YOUR DOING IT WRONG! :)

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

coldarchon 14y ago

30 years working with computers and the only thing I got is a lipoma at my right ellbow. Stand up every half hour, raise your arms every 20 mins and take a deep breath every 10 mins.

clintjhill 14y ago

I've been doing CrossFit for a year now. I couldn't articulate enough how it has improved my posture and general fitness. There isn't one particular thing about CrossFit, rather the whole. I'd recommend to anyone.

tapatio 14y ago
I'm all for CrossFit as long as it's free. Some people are paying $150 a month. That's just stupid.
- huherto 14y ago
  Not stupid, they just find something valuable that you don't. May be it is the gym, the trainer, peer pressure or whatever.
- clintjhill 14y ago
  Technically it's free. Plenty of websites with all sorts of helpful information about programming. But paying to be a part of a box and a small community while working in a competitive environment is worth money. To me at least.
gavingmiller 14y ago
Second that. I used to have constant shoulder issues with my mouse arm. As long as I'm being active with my shoulder I'm good. CrossFit, yoga, slack lining, it doesn't matter what you do, but not being physically active is a detriment to your well being. Everyone owns it to themselves to live healthy! For those who want to get started, but don't know how checkout Nerd Fitness: http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/ http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/ I have no ties, only that it's a great place to start learning about how to take care of yourself.

triplesec 14y ago

Don't improve your sitting posture: stand instead! We know about posture, but we're rubbish at it because humans are lazy! More scientists say you should stand or treadmill while working, and I definitely concur. Standing is so much better for you: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20947605 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20947605 and http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/16/AR2010101602903.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10... and http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/business/stand-up-desks-gaining-favor-in-the-workplace.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/business/stand-up-desks-ga...

sejje 14y ago

Alternative titles: Working at the DMV is bad for your health Being a lawyer is bad for your health Working in management is bad for your health Driving for a living is (really) bad for your health etc

tapatio 14y ago

Screw this stuff! My thin GF has anterior pelvic tilt and it looks hot!

noss 14y ago

My problems with shoulder and wrist pains all originate from stressful projects. When you sit entire days with your muscles tense, over and over again, that is when problems start to occur. I can not connect my problems to bad ergonomics, because the way I was sitting in front of my computer all the way up until university years, those were far from ergonomic positions. But if you are relaxed and have fun, you automatically vary your posture and position. Ergonomic chairs and keyboards are only one way to make you be able to endure your stressful work condition a bit longer when you sit there stressed trying to meet deadlines and whatever problems you fight with. The pains will show up, only later. Myself, I often try to wake up from the work, feel my body and if I'm actually stressed. Take a deep breath, see if I can let my arms hang loose and relaxed. If I feel that I'm actually sweaty and have a high pulse, then I need to go for a walk. A good manager that I can bring this up with helps. Also a bit of a fuck-off attitude also helps: My health is so much more valuable than the job and its compensation.