4 ms·

What an atrocious article. Anecdotal overload, complete non-understanding of statistics, and great dollops of confirmation bias and the fundamental attribution

What an atrocious article. Anecdotal overload, complete non-understanding of statistics, and great dollops of confirmation bias and the fundamental attribution error. It actually sickens me that this is what the NYTimes has become. > Mexico is floundering socially, politically and economically because so many of its citizens do not read Are you fucking kidding me? Does this guy understand that a narco fueled civil war is currently being waged throughout Mexico with nearly 60K deaths in the last 5 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War). I'd respond to the rest of his article - but it's just so, so bad that I really can't be bothered.

deleted 14y ago
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Patient0 14y ago
I am also genuinely puzzled how such an article made it to the front page of HN. Who upvoted this?
- endgame 14y ago
  Probably people who like to think they like reading, but didn't read the article.
Mvandenbergh 14y ago
>Are you fucking kidding me? Does this guy understand that a narco fueled civil war is currently being waged throughout Mexico with nearly 60K deaths in the last 5 years The author, David Toscana, is a Mexican novelist living in Monterrey. So yeah, I think he probably has some inkling of that. It's hardly surprising that a novelist would be concerned about the lack of interest in literature in his home country and that he might attribute rather more importance to that than is strictly speaking justifiable. Also, this is an op-ed, it's not an article and it doesn't represent either the opinion of the newspaper or the facts as reported by their journalists.
corporalagumbo 14y ago
I had completely the opposite reaction to you. I thought this was a lovely, heartfelt, clearly-written article. I especially enjoyed the final paragraph - "We know that books give people ambitions, expectations, a sense of dignity" - he nailed the power of books for me. As far as the lack of concrete statistics - well, I don't know about you, but until I hear a more-convincing alternate take, I'm going to take his word for it. He clearly knows more about Mexico than me. And his examples are pretty powerful - walking through a giant camp filled with striking teachers, examples of the behaviour of individual teachers, the attitude of the State Minister for Education. And why can't a raging narco war be linked in a small manner to a population lacking imagination, sensitivity and the ability to forge new economic pathways, linked back to a lack of interest in reading? Is that an offensive notion to entertain or something? It's not like you have to ignore other factors like the adjacent drug market, is it? Alternately, why can't these two problems - trafficking and bad education - both be afflicting Mexico simultaneously, feeding off of and reinforcing each other? I mean, seriously, why don't you just chill the fuck out and enjoy the article on its own merits, rather than imposing completely ridiculous standards on it? Do you have more experience of and personal involvement in Mexico than this author?
- rohern 14y ago
  These are not good forms of reasoning. You have here committed several fallacies that are very common and very worrying, as they tend to lead to the public adoption of poorly reasoned explanations and baseless facts. This is not an attack on you personally. > As far as the lack of concrete statistics - well, I don't know about you, but until I hear a more-convincing alternate take, I'm going to take his word for it. It is still a mystery how life originated on Earth. I know you will enjoy my theory about how the unicorns did it. No. No you won't. I am sure you know that this is a ridiculous argument to make. The fact that you have not heard a better explanation is a terrible reason to accept another explanation. Cogency does not imply correctness. > I mean, seriously, why don't you just chill the fuck out and enjoy the article on its own merits, rather than imposing completely ridiculous standards on it? There is no such thing as "its own merits". That is doublespeak for "do not judge it at all". Either it meets the standards of good reasoning, data presentation, and research, or it doesn't You cannot say that it has it own standards for these things that we the reader are forced to accept. > Do you have more experience of and personal involvement in Mexico than this author? Again, this is not a sensible argument. It does not matter to me that my doctor has had cancer before he treats me for cancer. Engineers at NASA did not personally need to visit the moon before they were able to engineer the moon lander. You do not need personal experience with phenomena to understand them. In fact, personal experience with a thing can lead to horrible mistakes in understanding and judgment backed up by the fallacy that because they come from personal experience, they are especially valid.
cafard 14y ago
This is an op ed piece, which ordinarily is not expected to be rigorously argued. I can't imagine that a Mexican writer would not know about the violence.
- NoPiece 14y ago
  The whole point of an opinion piece is to rigorously argue a position. How else can you convince people of something. And note how the author of this piece failed in that task. This is what the NY Times says in their writing guide for high school students. http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/specials/weblines/481.html http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/specials/weblines/48... -- It is a common mistake to believe that columns and editorials, unlike news articles, do not need to be thoughtful and measured. In truth, writing a column or editorial takes more reporting, not less. While the reporting for a news article needs to continue until all reasonable sides can be adequately represented, the reporting for an opinion piece needs to continue until the writer can judge reasonably which side has the strongest case. That takes more work, not less.
  - cafard 14y ago
    I base my statement on what the NY Times publishes on its op ed pages, not on what it provides in its guidelines. I would certainly prefer that the pieces be better reported.
simonw 14y ago
"It actually sickens me that this is what the NYTimes has become." I find this response puzzling. Do you understand the concept of opinion pieces and op-eds?

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

Patient0 14y ago

I am also genuinely puzzled how such an article made it to the front page of HN. Who upvoted this?

endgame 14y ago
Probably people who like to think they like reading, but didn't read the article.

Mvandenbergh 14y ago

>Are you fucking kidding me? Does this guy understand that a narco fueled civil war is currently being waged throughout Mexico with nearly 60K deaths in the last 5 years The author, David Toscana, is a Mexican novelist living in Monterrey. So yeah, I think he probably has some inkling of that. It's hardly surprising that a novelist would be concerned about the lack of interest in literature in his home country and that he might attribute rather more importance to that than is strictly speaking justifiable. Also, this is an op-ed, it's not an article and it doesn't represent either the opinion of the newspaper or the facts as reported by their journalists.

corporalagumbo 14y ago

I had completely the opposite reaction to you. I thought this was a lovely, heartfelt, clearly-written article. I especially enjoyed the final paragraph - "We know that books give people ambitions, expectations, a sense of dignity" - he nailed the power of books for me. As far as the lack of concrete statistics - well, I don't know about you, but until I hear a more-convincing alternate take, I'm going to take his word for it. He clearly knows more about Mexico than me. And his examples are pretty powerful - walking through a giant camp filled with striking teachers, examples of the behaviour of individual teachers, the attitude of the State Minister for Education. And why can't a raging narco war be linked in a small manner to a population lacking imagination, sensitivity and the ability to forge new economic pathways, linked back to a lack of interest in reading? Is that an offensive notion to entertain or something? It's not like you have to ignore other factors like the adjacent drug market, is it? Alternately, why can't these two problems - trafficking and bad education - both be afflicting Mexico simultaneously, feeding off of and reinforcing each other? I mean, seriously, why don't you just chill the fuck out and enjoy the article on its own merits, rather than imposing completely ridiculous standards on it? Do you have more experience of and personal involvement in Mexico than this author?

rohern 14y ago
These are not good forms of reasoning. You have here committed several fallacies that are very common and very worrying, as they tend to lead to the public adoption of poorly reasoned explanations and baseless facts. This is not an attack on you personally. > As far as the lack of concrete statistics - well, I don't know about you, but until I hear a more-convincing alternate take, I'm going to take his word for it. It is still a mystery how life originated on Earth. I know you will enjoy my theory about how the unicorns did it. No. No you won't. I am sure you know that this is a ridiculous argument to make. The fact that you have not heard a better explanation is a terrible reason to accept another explanation. Cogency does not imply correctness. > I mean, seriously, why don't you just chill the fuck out and enjoy the article on its own merits, rather than imposing completely ridiculous standards on it? There is no such thing as "its own merits". That is doublespeak for "do not judge it at all". Either it meets the standards of good reasoning, data presentation, and research, or it doesn't You cannot say that it has it own standards for these things that we the reader are forced to accept. > Do you have more experience of and personal involvement in Mexico than this author? Again, this is not a sensible argument. It does not matter to me that my doctor has had cancer before he treats me for cancer. Engineers at NASA did not personally need to visit the moon before they were able to engineer the moon lander. You do not need personal experience with phenomena to understand them. In fact, personal experience with a thing can lead to horrible mistakes in understanding and judgment backed up by the fallacy that because they come from personal experience, they are especially valid.

cafard 14y ago

This is an op ed piece, which ordinarily is not expected to be rigorously argued. I can't imagine that a Mexican writer would not know about the violence.

NoPiece 14y ago
The whole point of an opinion piece is to rigorously argue a position. How else can you convince people of something. And note how the author of this piece failed in that task. This is what the NY Times says in their writing guide for high school students. http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/specials/weblines/481.html http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/specials/weblines/48... -- It is a common mistake to believe that columns and editorials, unlike news articles, do not need to be thoughtful and measured. In truth, writing a column or editorial takes more reporting, not less. While the reporting for a news article needs to continue until all reasonable sides can be adequately represented, the reporting for an opinion piece needs to continue until the writer can judge reasonably which side has the strongest case. That takes more work, not less.
- cafard 14y ago
  I base my statement on what the NY Times publishes on its op ed pages, not on what it provides in its guidelines. I would certainly prefer that the pieces be better reported.

simonw 14y ago

"It actually sickens me that this is what the NYTimes has become." I find this response puzzling. Do you understand the concept of opinion pieces and op-eds?