5 ms·

"Our debt is really high, therefore social programs must be out of control" is not a sound argument.

crusso 14y ago
I guess if you didn't know or care that entitlements are the largest identifiable chunks of government spending you might feel that way.
- mistercow 14y ago
  The argument "our debt is really high, therefore there is too much spending" is also not a sound argument.
  - Androsynth 14y ago
    'x is not a sound argument' is not a sound rebuttal.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - mistercow 14y ago
      Do I really have to waste my time explaining that debt accumulates when revenue is less than spending, and so in order to say "the debt is too high, therefore spending is too high", you must first establish that the problem is not low revenue?
      - Androsynth 14y ago
        Yes, it helps the flow of the thread. At least that way I know what line of thinking you are using. Otherwise, why even post?
      - smsm42 14y ago
        The low revenue is a problem too, but raising revenue enough is very hard - since just raising taxes suppresses economic activity and breeds evasion, and making economy produce more by government decree is a secret not yet unlocked.
      - crusso 14y ago
        Well, you could google and look at actual economic data to see that spending as a percentage of GDP is now over 24%, only outstripped by World War II era spending. http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1900_2010USp_13s1li011lcn_F0f http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1900_2010... So where does your condescension come from regarding others' knowledge of spending vs taxation?
- mcosta 14y ago
  Isn't the largest identifiable chunks of government spending defense?
  - crusso 14y ago
    Entitlements (not in the Constitution) are twice as large as defense (in the Constitution). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY...
smsm42 14y ago
Actually, given how much these programs participate in the formation of the debt and given what the projections are for these costs in the future, it's pretty close. Of course, any debt by itself does not mean that, but this particular one is heavily related to spending (see how state revenues and outlays changed lately) and spending is heavily related to welfare. "Out of control" is a matter of opinion, spending and debt pattern are out there for all to see.
- AJ007 14y ago
  I would propose the description of unsustainable and incapable of delivery as better than out of control.
SilasX 14y ago
I think the argument was more like "our unfunded social programs' costs require out-of-control payments to be made in the future, therefore social programs are out of control."
- Evbn 14y ago
  Maybe it is our military programs that are unfunded. Like the ones passed as non-budgetary "emergency" appropriations.
  - SilasX 14y ago
    The military budget is funded, except possibly military pensions. Edit: What I mean is, the amount they are obligated to spend is set on a yearly bases (maybe tri-yearly in some cases), not on a 60-year horizon in which entire generations expect a future payment. Forget about the use of "funded" vs not -- wouldn't you say the above is a pretty substantive difference? If we have to cut the fat, we have the option at any time of slashing military spending. In contrast, slashing other spending means stiffing pensioners who predicated their whole lives on it. We have an obligation to give them a realistic estimate of how much will be around when we hit a serious fiscal cliff -- in addition to cutting military spending.

I guess if you didn't know or care that entitlements are the largest identifiable chunks of government spending you might feel that way.

mistercow 14y ago
The argument "our debt is really high, therefore there is too much spending" is also not a sound argument.
- Androsynth 14y ago
  'x is not a sound argument' is not a sound rebuttal.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - mistercow 14y ago
    Do I really have to waste my time explaining that debt accumulates when revenue is less than spending, and so in order to say "the debt is too high, therefore spending is too high", you must first establish that the problem is not low revenue?
    - Androsynth 14y ago
      Yes, it helps the flow of the thread. At least that way I know what line of thinking you are using. Otherwise, why even post?
    - smsm42 14y ago
      The low revenue is a problem too, but raising revenue enough is very hard - since just raising taxes suppresses economic activity and breeds evasion, and making economy produce more by government decree is a secret not yet unlocked.
    - crusso 14y ago
      Well, you could google and look at actual economic data to see that spending as a percentage of GDP is now over 24%, only outstripped by World War II era spending. http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1900_2010USp_13s1li011lcn_F0f http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1900_2010... So where does your condescension come from regarding others' knowledge of spending vs taxation?
mcosta 14y ago
Isn't the largest identifiable chunks of government spending defense?
- crusso 14y ago
  Entitlements (not in the Constitution) are twice as large as defense (in the Constitution). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY...

smsm42 14y ago

Actually, given how much these programs participate in the formation of the debt and given what the projections are for these costs in the future, it's pretty close. Of course, any debt by itself does not mean that, but this particular one is heavily related to spending (see how state revenues and outlays changed lately) and spending is heavily related to welfare. "Out of control" is a matter of opinion, spending and debt pattern are out there for all to see.

AJ007 14y ago
I would propose the description of unsustainable and incapable of delivery as better than out of control.

SilasX 14y ago

I think the argument was more like "our unfunded social programs' costs require out-of-control payments to be made in the future, therefore social programs are out of control."

Evbn 14y ago
Maybe it is our military programs that are unfunded. Like the ones passed as non-budgetary "emergency" appropriations.
- SilasX 14y ago
  The military budget is funded, except possibly military pensions. Edit: What I mean is, the amount they are obligated to spend is set on a yearly bases (maybe tri-yearly in some cases), not on a 60-year horizon in which entire generations expect a future payment. Forget about the use of "funded" vs not -- wouldn't you say the above is a pretty substantive difference? If we have to cut the fat, we have the option at any time of slashing military spending. In contrast, slashing other spending means stiffing pensioners who predicated their whole lives on it. We have an obligation to give them a realistic estimate of how much will be around when we hit a serious fiscal cliff -- in addition to cutting military spending.