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Indeed. I read all four of the blog posts. All four of them make the majority of their money from consulting or from training -- books, videos, and workshops

Indeed. I read all four of the blog posts. All four of them make the majority of their money from consulting or from training -- books, videos, and workshops -- rather than from products. The split ranges from around 50/50 to almost 90/10. In 2012, Patrick made 20% of his income (not revenues) from products, and 80% of his income from consulting and training, primarily client engagements. (He did not disclose revenues from his second product -- but careful reading of his blog suggests that it probably has not quadrupled his product income.) In 2010, Amy made 32% of her revenues from products, and 68% from consulting and training, primarily workshops. (The 68% has to be split 50/50 with her husband, but even after splitting it in half, it's still 48% vs 52% -- with the majority coming from consulting and training.) In 2012, Nathan made 18% of his revenue from products, and 82% from consulting and training, primarily books. In 2012, Brennan Dunn made 13% of his revenue from products, and 87% from training and consulting, primarily consulting. Interestingly, he took Amy's course and did a 180-degree reversal of direction. They have all discovered that the money is not in gold mining -- or even in selling shovels to the gold miners. It's in giving presentations about gold-mining, and selling videos teaching them how to pan for gold. Patrick wrote about wrestling with his conscience before charging for his expertise, but ultimately discovered that it tripled his income. They have all turned their blogging popularity into cash -- and that's why they continue to blog. The people who are making most of their money from gold-mining are not blogging about the location of their mine.

orangethirty 14y ago
The people who are making most of their money from gold-mining are not blogging about the location of their mine. Perfectly put. But hey, I'm a consultant. I understand why, and how they do it. I'm not knocking on them, because they do provide value and are not scamming anyone.
bdunn 14y ago
Here's what I think is being missed in this discussion: Product != Software People buy software because they desire some intended outcome. For instance, I recently switched to Xero because emailing spreadsheets of categorizations back and forth to my accountant is messy and frustrating. And I might buy a book on bookkeeping because I suck at it. Or a course on cashflow because I never learned how to properly budget. I think if you were to ask me, Patrick, Amy, Nathan, etc... if we see a huge difference between, say, a SaaS product we run and a workshop we teach, we wouldn't. The goal's the same: make someone better off than they were before. It's really frustrating, but understandable on HN, to see people downplay products that aren't software. When writing Planscope, my goal was to help increase project transparency between consultants and their clients. After talking with many customres, I realized a large number of them needed help on something much more foundational to their business: how to price. So I built another product that helped people with that. (Also, I honestly don't think that posting some — hopefully helpful — content on what I learned in trying to sell a book is going to result in "Double UR Freelancing Ratez" coming out and crushing my sales anytime soon.)
- tanzam75 14y ago
  That's exactly my point. You've chosen to be in a business where blogging doesn't hurt you -- and in fact, it helps you. As for giving non-software its due, that's a different discussion altogether. I was commenting on a post that talked about receiving $20 in the mail for shareware, on a thread that talked about the situation being tougher than in "box software's heyday."
  - ahoyhere 14y ago
    "You've chosen to be in a business where blogging doesn't hurt you -- and in fact, it helps you." How is this different than any other business? Sure, what Brennan blogs about attracts his customers. But it can and no doubt will attract other people like him as well. What's stopping his competitors, or potential competitors, from copying what he's doing… of using his revenue posts as proof of market?
    - tanzam75 14y ago
      Then why doesn't everyone do it? Why does Patrick reveal all of his financials, except for his second product? (Which, by the way, I think is a smart thing to do.) Web 2.0 software-as-a-service is not helped too much by blog posts about how much money you're making. The site itself serves as promotion. A free trial is a much better way to promote your product than just a blog post. (Of course, you should do both.) A training business is inherently more amenable to blogging as a form of promotion, vs., say, Google Adwords. Selling training requires that people trust what you have to say. The fact that you're making money convinces people that you are deserving of trust. Blogging is like a free trial -- it gives your customers a sample of what you can look forward to when they buy. In Brennan's own words (speaking of his free newsletter): http://planscope.io/blog/giving-up-a-million-dollar-consultancy/ http://planscope.io/blog/giving-up-a-million-dollar-consulta... "I’m cultivating an audience who trusts my opinion and has received a lot of value from me in the past. This makes, oh, selling a $1,199 workshop exponentially easier than if I were to run a paid AdWords campaign for the same workshop, which I daresay would be a fool’s error."
tnorthcutt 14y ago
All four of them make the majority of their money from consulting or from training -- books, videos, and workshops -- rather than from products. Do you think that a book or a video is not a product?
- tanzam75 14y ago
  Of course, anything that you buy is a product in some sense. Services are also products. The maid you hire to clean your house is also a product. Healthcare is a product. And yes, education is also a product. But this is a different topic than the one we were discussing. The original article was about receiving $20 in the mail for shareware, "his first product." 37signals makes most of its money from a software product -- not a training product. The thread I'm responding to began when someone complained that you cannot charge money anymore for products and services, because so much open source software is available and services (which I take to be software-as-a-service) is free. It's not someone complaining that books or videos don't sell anymore, because so much information is online for free. Training is a profitable niche. But we can't all make 80% of our money training each other on how to do things.
  - ahoyhere 14y ago
    A maid is not a product, she is a person. Her hourly rate is a service, because she is physically in your home cleaning for the time you pay her for. That is the definition of a service. Unless you only buy books where the author comes to your house and delivers a dramatic reading… … books are products. And so are videos.
brandonsavage 14y ago
I disagree with your percentage breakdown. Brennan made $106,443 from his products, for 45% of his income. He could have dropped the consulting altogether and still would have made a nice six figure salary. Nathan earned 76% of his income from his products. Amy earned 100% of her income from products (as best I can tell). Products are not the same as software. An ebook is no less a product than a paper book you buy in a store.
ahoyhere 14y ago
First: Books, video courses, etc. aren't training OR consulting. You write once, and infinite people can buy them. A workshop is training but it's also a product because you only have to make it once, then you could present it yourself or easily have somebody else present your material, or turn it into a series of videos, etc., etc. Just because you are currently doing the work yourself doesn't mean that's the way it has to be. As for your point about not "blogging about the location of their mine"… As I have shared in many places, Freckle is grossing over $400k/yr now. Yep, a time tracking app. I "blog" (present, talk, podcast, etc) about this all the time. I give away my "secrets" (such as they are) repeatedly. I show people my revenue, and I teach about how I designed the software and how I market it. Of course the way we market it is plain to see considering the marketing is on the internet and I tweet it, link to it, talk about it, etc. Surprise, surprise -- nobody has ever copied Freckle. Nor have any of our competitors copied even a single element of our innovative interface. Not even the really obvious stuff their customers need! The fact is, you can tell people your "secrets" all day long and rest easy. Because the reason those people aren't rich isn't because they lack "secrets," it's because they lack discipline. Finally, you claim that if people make money with training/workshops/videos/books, then we're just "giving presentations about gold-mining." But 42% of our gross revenue in 2010 was from JavaScript workshops. Yep, programming workshops. About code. Amazingly, there were no pickaxes or sieves in sight. I understand that you're angry. Whatever it was you signed up for, in the hopes of striking it rich (or at least highly comfortable), it had to do with shiny software and not boring old ebooks or video classes on how to effectively onboard new customers. What we do isn't sexy. But the fact is, unless you can help people, you're not going to be able to make sales. Help can come in any form, even as software, as long as it works for the customer. If your products (yes, products) don't help people, though, you're sunk… and sexiness won't help you.

orangethirty 14y ago

The people who are making most of their money from gold-mining are not blogging about the location of their mine. Perfectly put. But hey, I'm a consultant. I understand why, and how they do it. I'm not knocking on them, because they do provide value and are not scamming anyone.

bdunn 14y ago

Here's what I think is being missed in this discussion: Product != Software People buy software because they desire some intended outcome. For instance, I recently switched to Xero because emailing spreadsheets of categorizations back and forth to my accountant is messy and frustrating. And I might buy a book on bookkeeping because I suck at it. Or a course on cashflow because I never learned how to properly budget. I think if you were to ask me, Patrick, Amy, Nathan, etc... if we see a huge difference between, say, a SaaS product we run and a workshop we teach, we wouldn't. The goal's the same: make someone better off than they were before. It's really frustrating, but understandable on HN, to see people downplay products that aren't software. When writing Planscope, my goal was to help increase project transparency between consultants and their clients. After talking with many customres, I realized a large number of them needed help on something much more foundational to their business: how to price. So I built another product that helped people with that. (Also, I honestly don't think that posting some — hopefully helpful — content on what I learned in trying to sell a book is going to result in "Double UR Freelancing Ratez" coming out and crushing my sales anytime soon.)

tanzam75 14y ago
That's exactly my point. You've chosen to be in a business where blogging doesn't hurt you -- and in fact, it helps you. As for giving non-software its due, that's a different discussion altogether. I was commenting on a post that talked about receiving $20 in the mail for shareware, on a thread that talked about the situation being tougher than in "box software's heyday."
- ahoyhere 14y ago
  "You've chosen to be in a business where blogging doesn't hurt you -- and in fact, it helps you." How is this different than any other business? Sure, what Brennan blogs about attracts his customers. But it can and no doubt will attract other people like him as well. What's stopping his competitors, or potential competitors, from copying what he's doing… of using his revenue posts as proof of market?
  - tanzam75 14y ago
    Then why doesn't everyone do it? Why does Patrick reveal all of his financials, except for his second product? (Which, by the way, I think is a smart thing to do.) Web 2.0 software-as-a-service is not helped too much by blog posts about how much money you're making. The site itself serves as promotion. A free trial is a much better way to promote your product than just a blog post. (Of course, you should do both.) A training business is inherently more amenable to blogging as a form of promotion, vs., say, Google Adwords. Selling training requires that people trust what you have to say. The fact that you're making money convinces people that you are deserving of trust. Blogging is like a free trial -- it gives your customers a sample of what you can look forward to when they buy. In Brennan's own words (speaking of his free newsletter): http://planscope.io/blog/giving-up-a-million-dollar-consultancy/ http://planscope.io/blog/giving-up-a-million-dollar-consulta... "I’m cultivating an audience who trusts my opinion and has received a lot of value from me in the past. This makes, oh, selling a $1,199 workshop exponentially easier than if I were to run a paid AdWords campaign for the same workshop, which I daresay would be a fool’s error."

tnorthcutt 14y ago

All four of them make the majority of their money from consulting or from training -- books, videos, and workshops -- rather than from products. Do you think that a book or a video is not a product?

tanzam75 14y ago
Of course, anything that you buy is a product in some sense. Services are also products. The maid you hire to clean your house is also a product. Healthcare is a product. And yes, education is also a product. But this is a different topic than the one we were discussing. The original article was about receiving $20 in the mail for shareware, "his first product." 37signals makes most of its money from a software product -- not a training product. The thread I'm responding to began when someone complained that you cannot charge money anymore for products and services, because so much open source software is available and services (which I take to be software-as-a-service) is free. It's not someone complaining that books or videos don't sell anymore, because so much information is online for free. Training is a profitable niche. But we can't all make 80% of our money training each other on how to do things.
- ahoyhere 14y ago
  A maid is not a product, she is a person. Her hourly rate is a service, because she is physically in your home cleaning for the time you pay her for. That is the definition of a service. Unless you only buy books where the author comes to your house and delivers a dramatic reading… … books are products. And so are videos.

brandonsavage 14y ago

I disagree with your percentage breakdown. Brennan made $106,443 from his products, for 45% of his income. He could have dropped the consulting altogether and still would have made a nice six figure salary. Nathan earned 76% of his income from his products. Amy earned 100% of her income from products (as best I can tell). Products are not the same as software. An ebook is no less a product than a paper book you buy in a store.

ahoyhere 14y ago

First: Books, video courses, etc. aren't training OR consulting. You write once, and infinite people can buy them. A workshop is training but it's also a product because you only have to make it once, then you could present it yourself or easily have somebody else present your material, or turn it into a series of videos, etc., etc. Just because you are currently doing the work yourself doesn't mean that's the way it has to be. As for your point about not "blogging about the location of their mine"… As I have shared in many places, Freckle is grossing over $400k/yr now. Yep, a time tracking app. I "blog" (present, talk, podcast, etc) about this all the time. I give away my "secrets" (such as they are) repeatedly. I show people my revenue, and I teach about how I designed the software and how I market it. Of course the way we market it is plain to see considering the marketing is on the internet and I tweet it, link to it, talk about it, etc. Surprise, surprise -- nobody has ever copied Freckle. Nor have any of our competitors copied even a single element of our innovative interface. Not even the really obvious stuff their customers need! The fact is, you can tell people your "secrets" all day long and rest easy. Because the reason those people aren't rich isn't because they lack "secrets," it's because they lack discipline. Finally, you claim that if people make money with training/workshops/videos/books, then we're just "giving presentations about gold-mining." But 42% of our gross revenue in 2010 was from JavaScript workshops. Yep, programming workshops. About code. Amazingly, there were no pickaxes or sieves in sight. I understand that you're angry. Whatever it was you signed up for, in the hopes of striking it rich (or at least highly comfortable), it had to do with shiny software and not boring old ebooks or video classes on how to effectively onboard new customers. What we do isn't sexy. But the fact is, unless you can help people, you're not going to be able to make sales. Help can come in any form, even as software, as long as it works for the customer. If your products (yes, products) don't help people, though, you're sunk… and sexiness won't help you.