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The one that's always confused me is having a Fridge in a cold climate. Always wondered if there was a technology that could simply couple the fridge to the ou

The one that's always confused me is having a Fridge in a cold climate. Always wondered if there was a technology that could simply couple the fridge to the outside temperature.

pingswept 18y ago
This does exist. For industrial applications, there's http://www.freeaire.com/ http://www.freeaire.com/. There are also small fans designed for use with RV fridges that could do the same thing. Unfortunately, in a cold climate, you need to heat your house anyway. Electric heat is more expensive than natural gas or oil heat, so you might save some money, but from a greenhouse gas perspective, the savings are small at best.
- jwilliams 18y ago
  Yeah, good point.
- furyg3 18y ago
  "but from a greenhouse gas perspective, the savings are small at best" Taking that argument down to an even more micro-level: most of the light in my apartment comes from overhead halogen lights (hot), and sometimes I'm inclined to switch them for energy efficient fixtures, but... I live in a cold place anyway, so I'm not sure that switching makes a lot of sense. I know it's more efficient for the central heating system to be doing the heating (and not light bulbs, refrigerators, or laptops), but I need the heat, I need the light, and my energy bill isn't that big, so why switch?
  - pingswept 18y ago
    Because natural gas is around 4x cheaper per joule than electricity. If your energy bill is, say, $10 per month, maybe it's not worth it. Would you buy $30 in lightbulbs to save $7.50 * 12 months * 10 years = $900 over the next ten years? If not, would you like to fund my startup?
    - billswift 18y ago
      I've heard this over and over, but in my area many people have been switching from gas to electric and saving money. Now that gas prices are supposedly starting to fall because of lack of demand maybe things will start getting rational again - even with lower distribution costs there should be no way electricity would be equivalent to gas, much less cheaper.
      - amalcon 18y ago
        These people have been (most likely) switching to heat pumps, not space-heaters. The heat you get from a light bulb is purely waste from the resistance of the light bulb, so the output per unit of input will be around 1:1, comparable to that of a space-heater. Heat pumps are much more efficient, because they give you both the waste heat (from resistance) and heat from outside.
      - pingswept 18y ago
        I can't claim to have done a worldwide survey of gas and electricity prices, but my 4x number is from a direct calculation off of my own utility bills. I did the calculation about 2 years ago, but both costs have remained relatively constant (within 25%, say?) where I live in Boston since then. Additionally, Massachusetts electric prices are around 2x the national average (~$0.20/kWh rather than ~$0.10/kWh). But maybe I'm a statistical anomaly. I'd be interested to see broader evidence if you've got it. As mentioned in another reply to your comment, it could be that people are getting some savings by using heat pumps rather than resistive heaters. For temperatures near room temperature, heat pumps have a coefficient of performance as high as 3 or 4, but as it gets colder, it approaches 1. In a warm place like California, you might beat an inefficient old gas furnace with an electric heat pump.
parenthesis 18y ago
I remember staying in a Youth Hostel in Scotland in cold weather, and people keeping their cartons of milk on the outside windowsill 'in' the kitchen. (Presumably there was no fridge.) The point being: if you are in a cold climate, you can just keep food outside (suitably protected, etc., etc.).
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- jwilliams 18y ago
  Yeah I used to live in Zurich. Great for parties. Just put the beer on the balcony :-)
  - timcederman 18y ago
    Beer on the balcony. A time-honoured tradition at Hotham.
  - mikeyur 18y ago
    For new years we kept our keg on the patio to keep it cool. But that's just because it wouldn't fit in the freezer :P
- kqr2 18y ago
  During the winter, I kept my sodas outside my window sill, but sometimes it would get too cold and they would burst!
  - electromagnetic 18y ago
    All this winter my wife and I have been keeping water bottles on the window sill, (I live south-west of toronto so it can get really cold at night). It often supercooled, it's really cool to see crystallization happen right in front of your eyes. (Ed: I've only ever seen supercooling once in the freezer, but I saw it almost every single night during winter, you can even drink from the bottle before it begins to crystallize. If only the same could be done with beer.) I've avoided putting sodas on my window sill because I've had a few explode when I've stuck them in the freezer in the summer to get them ice cold. When my head is less than 2 feet away I don't want one of them exploding, if only because I don't want to strip my bed sheets at 3am. I doubt one would ever be capable of hurting someone as they always seem to split in the side.
lsb 18y ago
Carlin mused about a fridge with a butter warmer.
lutorm 18y ago
Amory Lovins talks about this in "factor four" (great book). They go through how the refrigerator is a textbook example of loads of small design decisions ending up with something really suboptimal. In a cold climate, what you do is put the radiator coils on the outside of the house. Every kitchen would have two pipe hookups where the fridge goes, leading to the coils on the outside. Then you get the fridge and plug it in just like you do with washers. (Or you could plug it into your heat pump, which you should use to heat your house anyway.)

The one that's always confused me is having a Fridge in a cold climate. Always wondered if there was a technology that could simply couple the fridge to the outside temperature.

pingswept 18y ago

This does exist. For industrial applications, there's http://www.freeaire.com/ http://www.freeaire.com/. There are also small fans designed for use with RV fridges that could do the same thing. Unfortunately, in a cold climate, you need to heat your house anyway. Electric heat is more expensive than natural gas or oil heat, so you might save some money, but from a greenhouse gas perspective, the savings are small at best.

jwilliams 18y ago
Yeah, good point.
furyg3 18y ago
"but from a greenhouse gas perspective, the savings are small at best" Taking that argument down to an even more micro-level: most of the light in my apartment comes from overhead halogen lights (hot), and sometimes I'm inclined to switch them for energy efficient fixtures, but... I live in a cold place anyway, so I'm not sure that switching makes a lot of sense. I know it's more efficient for the central heating system to be doing the heating (and not light bulbs, refrigerators, or laptops), but I need the heat, I need the light, and my energy bill isn't that big, so why switch?
- pingswept 18y ago
  Because natural gas is around 4x cheaper per joule than electricity. If your energy bill is, say, $10 per month, maybe it's not worth it. Would you buy $30 in lightbulbs to save $7.50 * 12 months * 10 years = $900 over the next ten years? If not, would you like to fund my startup?
  - billswift 18y ago
    I've heard this over and over, but in my area many people have been switching from gas to electric and saving money. Now that gas prices are supposedly starting to fall because of lack of demand maybe things will start getting rational again - even with lower distribution costs there should be no way electricity would be equivalent to gas, much less cheaper.
    - amalcon 18y ago
      These people have been (most likely) switching to heat pumps, not space-heaters. The heat you get from a light bulb is purely waste from the resistance of the light bulb, so the output per unit of input will be around 1:1, comparable to that of a space-heater. Heat pumps are much more efficient, because they give you both the waste heat (from resistance) and heat from outside.
    - pingswept 18y ago
      I can't claim to have done a worldwide survey of gas and electricity prices, but my 4x number is from a direct calculation off of my own utility bills. I did the calculation about 2 years ago, but both costs have remained relatively constant (within 25%, say?) where I live in Boston since then. Additionally, Massachusetts electric prices are around 2x the national average (~$0.20/kWh rather than ~$0.10/kWh). But maybe I'm a statistical anomaly. I'd be interested to see broader evidence if you've got it. As mentioned in another reply to your comment, it could be that people are getting some savings by using heat pumps rather than resistive heaters. For temperatures near room temperature, heat pumps have a coefficient of performance as high as 3 or 4, but as it gets colder, it approaches 1. In a warm place like California, you might beat an inefficient old gas furnace with an electric heat pump.

parenthesis 18y ago

I remember staying in a Youth Hostel in Scotland in cold weather, and people keeping their cartons of milk on the outside windowsill 'in' the kitchen. (Presumably there was no fridge.) The point being: if you are in a cold climate, you can just keep food outside (suitably protected, etc., etc.).

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
jwilliams 18y ago
Yeah I used to live in Zurich. Great for parties. Just put the beer on the balcony :-)
- timcederman 18y ago
  Beer on the balcony. A time-honoured tradition at Hotham.
- mikeyur 18y ago
  For new years we kept our keg on the patio to keep it cool. But that's just because it wouldn't fit in the freezer :P
kqr2 18y ago
During the winter, I kept my sodas outside my window sill, but sometimes it would get too cold and they would burst!
- electromagnetic 18y ago
  All this winter my wife and I have been keeping water bottles on the window sill, (I live south-west of toronto so it can get really cold at night). It often supercooled, it's really cool to see crystallization happen right in front of your eyes. (Ed: I've only ever seen supercooling once in the freezer, but I saw it almost every single night during winter, you can even drink from the bottle before it begins to crystallize. If only the same could be done with beer.) I've avoided putting sodas on my window sill because I've had a few explode when I've stuck them in the freezer in the summer to get them ice cold. When my head is less than 2 feet away I don't want one of them exploding, if only because I don't want to strip my bed sheets at 3am. I doubt one would ever be capable of hurting someone as they always seem to split in the side.

lsb 18y ago

Carlin mused about a fridge with a butter warmer.

lutorm 18y ago

Amory Lovins talks about this in "factor four" (great book). They go through how the refrigerator is a textbook example of loads of small design decisions ending up with something really suboptimal. In a cold climate, what you do is put the radiator coils on the outside of the house. Every kitchen would have two pipe hookups where the fridge goes, leading to the coils on the outside. Then you get the fridge and plug it in just like you do with washers. (Or you could plug it into your heat pump, which you should use to heat your house anyway.)