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> You are asserting that the law firm's long working hours were caused by her med use. Do you think you might have that backwards? It probably becomes a viciou

> You are asserting that the law firm's long working hours were caused by her med use. Do you think you might have that backwards? It probably becomes a vicious cycle / race to the bottom. You take more drugs to work longer hours and compete with your colleagues, who start taking more drugs so they can work more hours to have the edge over you...

nikatwork 14y ago
The long working hours of many law firms existed before the widespread availability of adderall. Drugs have absolutely zero to do with it. They are merely a symptom of the underlying workaholic culture.
- etrain 14y ago
  I had a friend whose grandfather was a hot shot lawyer at one of the largest international firms of his day in the 60s/70s/80s. She told me that he was a speed addict for close to 20 years. Long story short he got into a situation where he had to quit cold turkey and did, successfully. Substance abuse to get ahead is nothing new. Drugs are not as new as we pretend they are, and it's been common practice to abuse them for personal gain probably as long as they've been around.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - intended 14y ago
    This is a scale error. The industrial revolution was a shift in the curve. You could successfully argue that automation to get ahead is nothing new, but it would miss the importance of the scale of the new changes. Adderal and its ilk are a similar shift in the curve. People with access used to be people rich enough to afford speed. Now almost all school kids are entering the work force and know someone or have themselves used performance enhancers.
  - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
    I've worked for a couple of the bigger law firms in the UK and I've never come across drug use (of this type). Drugs may enable and perpetuate this behaviour today, at least in some countries, but I don't think there's much of a case that they caused it. At least if they did it arose in places like the UK without that assistance. From my experience the root is far simpler - greed. They dangle the possibility of partnership with all it's attendant wealth and status in front of the bright young things and watch them scrap it out and burn out. I have a friend who made partner with one of the magic circle firms and while the rewards are amazing, I wouldn't swap his life for mine in a million years.
    - michaelochurch 14y ago
      They dangle the possibility of partnership with all it's attendant wealth and status in front of the bright young things and watch them scrap it out and burn out. It used to be that about 5% didn't make partner. It was like getting fired-- in the 1970s, when that itself was rare. It was harder to get an associate position, but once you were in, you were solid. Also, work hours were not at the extreme that they are now. Now, instead of 5% not making partner, it's about 5% who make partner. That's because some really evil, greedy fucks got in charge and realized they could replace partnerships with overworked, churn-and-burn associates.
      - etrain 14y ago
        > That's because some really evil, greedy fucks got in charge and realized they could replace partnerships with overworked, churn-and-burn associates. Or could it be that there are way too many lawyers being produced every year and the realities of a highly competitive market have set in? http://flustercucked.blogspot.com/2010/07/40-years-of-lawyer-overproduction-data.html http://flustercucked.blogspot.com/2010/07/40-years-of-lawyer...
      - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
        You're right that the number who make partner has shrunk massively (and the competitiveness goes further in that being a partner is no longer as secure as it was - several of the large firms have ousted partners which would previously have been almost unheard of). The upside (at least for those competing) is that many who don't make partner will still go on to secure corporate lawyer jobs earning six figures...
- kragen 14y ago
  Can you be more specific about the time frame you're thinking about? Adderall has been widely available since the 1940s.
- ebiester 14y ago
  Cocaine and speed were abused by high powered professions for decades.
Wintamute 14y ago
Are you asserting that the main reason people work long hours is because of performance enhancing drugs? And if you're not asserting that, what are you asserting?
- AnIrishDuck 14y ago
  I'm asserting that trying to extract causation from these scenarios is often not productive. One outcome didn't lead to another; feedback was almost certainly involved.

nikatwork 14y ago

The long working hours of many law firms existed before the widespread availability of adderall. Drugs have absolutely zero to do with it. They are merely a symptom of the underlying workaholic culture.

etrain 14y ago
I had a friend whose grandfather was a hot shot lawyer at one of the largest international firms of his day in the 60s/70s/80s. She told me that he was a speed addict for close to 20 years. Long story short he got into a situation where he had to quit cold turkey and did, successfully. Substance abuse to get ahead is nothing new. Drugs are not as new as we pretend they are, and it's been common practice to abuse them for personal gain probably as long as they've been around.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- intended 14y ago
  This is a scale error. The industrial revolution was a shift in the curve. You could successfully argue that automation to get ahead is nothing new, but it would miss the importance of the scale of the new changes. Adderal and its ilk are a similar shift in the curve. People with access used to be people rich enough to afford speed. Now almost all school kids are entering the work force and know someone or have themselves used performance enhancers.
- Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
  I've worked for a couple of the bigger law firms in the UK and I've never come across drug use (of this type). Drugs may enable and perpetuate this behaviour today, at least in some countries, but I don't think there's much of a case that they caused it. At least if they did it arose in places like the UK without that assistance. From my experience the root is far simpler - greed. They dangle the possibility of partnership with all it's attendant wealth and status in front of the bright young things and watch them scrap it out and burn out. I have a friend who made partner with one of the magic circle firms and while the rewards are amazing, I wouldn't swap his life for mine in a million years.
  - michaelochurch 14y ago
    They dangle the possibility of partnership with all it's attendant wealth and status in front of the bright young things and watch them scrap it out and burn out. It used to be that about 5% didn't make partner. It was like getting fired-- in the 1970s, when that itself was rare. It was harder to get an associate position, but once you were in, you were solid. Also, work hours were not at the extreme that they are now. Now, instead of 5% not making partner, it's about 5% who make partner. That's because some really evil, greedy fucks got in charge and realized they could replace partnerships with overworked, churn-and-burn associates.
    - etrain 14y ago
      > That's because some really evil, greedy fucks got in charge and realized they could replace partnerships with overworked, churn-and-burn associates. Or could it be that there are way too many lawyers being produced every year and the realities of a highly competitive market have set in? http://flustercucked.blogspot.com/2010/07/40-years-of-lawyer-overproduction-data.html http://flustercucked.blogspot.com/2010/07/40-years-of-lawyer...
    - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
      You're right that the number who make partner has shrunk massively (and the competitiveness goes further in that being a partner is no longer as secure as it was - several of the large firms have ousted partners which would previously have been almost unheard of). The upside (at least for those competing) is that many who don't make partner will still go on to secure corporate lawyer jobs earning six figures...
kragen 14y ago
Can you be more specific about the time frame you're thinking about? Adderall has been widely available since the 1940s.
ebiester 14y ago
Cocaine and speed were abused by high powered professions for decades.

Wintamute 14y ago

Are you asserting that the main reason people work long hours is because of performance enhancing drugs? And if you're not asserting that, what are you asserting?

AnIrishDuck 14y ago
I'm asserting that trying to extract causation from these scenarios is often not productive. One outcome didn't lead to another; feedback was almost certainly involved.