6 ms·

The hard thing to bend my mind around is the fact that many people in China are in favour of Internet censorship. I have witnessed the same thing here in the U

by phugoid 18y ago

The hard thing to bend my mind around is the fact that many people in China are in favour of Internet censorship. I have witnessed the same thing here in the UAE - even from young Western-educated locals. I suppose that if you grow up in a society where heavy-handed censorship is widespread in all media and even conversation, you'd accept it as normal and perhaps necessary. Self-censorship is even more effective and omni-present. Note: I'm not claiming that censorship is absent in the West, but you'd be silly not to acknowledge that there's less of it. One local told me that he wouldn't dream of giving an unfiltered Internet connection to many of his countrymen, as nothing in their culture has prepared them to deal with what they'd run into. Of course, he himself uses a VPN to dial out.

chiffonade 18y ago
> Of course, he himself uses a VPN to dial out. Sounds like class warfare. Same shit, different country.
jacoblyles 18y ago
China is less than a lifetime away from its last civil war. I can see how that would make people fearful and cautious. Allowing populism to run a muck could lead to revolution, especially in a young and poor nation like China. Contrary to the romantic ideal of revolution we have in the West, in practice it is a bloody, miserable, and violent thing. Call me a fascist, but I can understand the Chinese authorities' attempts to short-circuit anti-government movements. I can also understand popular support for such actions, given that the current Chinese government is more competent than all but a handful on this planet. Also - I'm just trying to understand and explore their side here. I do enjoy living in a free society where I can support market anarchism and make frequent anti-government comments. I'm just not so much of an idealist to believe that American-style democracy is optimal for all places, times, and situations. For example, I can understand why the Germans chose to ban Nazi publications in the wake of World War II, free speech be damned.
netsp 18y ago
No Censorship, like like no economic intervention, no prohibitions etc. are not intuitive concepts. Censorship is not bad just because it's bad (like murder or assault). It doesn't usually hurt anyone directly. In fact it's trying to help. If heroin, fascism, homosexuality or anorexia are bad, why not work to stop them? To oppose censorship, you need to accept that in order to censor bad things, you need to have institutions that decide what is bad (don't we already have those?) and a means of blocking them. This will lead to bad things like censoring good things. There is no way around that, just like outrunning light. That's a pretty flimsy argument to make. If it hasn't been drilled into you, you probably won't accept it. This isn't something that just people in the UAE or China will not 'get.' Australians today will not be convinced that banning pedophilia sites is a bad idea. Try separating a debate about the legalization of drugs from a discussion about how harmful it is to take drugs.
est 18y ago
> The hard thing to bend my mind around is the fact that many people in China are in favour of Internet censorship. Wait, where did you get that?
- jhancock 18y ago
  they are in favor of the same things other country's peoples are in favor of blocking: porn, etc. trouble is once you have a "great firewall" in place, it gets used to block whatever is convenient with no oversight.
- phugoid 18y ago
  A number of articles I've read, but sorry I haven't recorded any specific links. I've also read about some very patriotic Chinese surfers that go around flaming anything that doesn't conform to the Party line. Same happens here in UAE. From several indicators like this, I have assumed there's quite a bit of similarity between the two situations. The two national cultures are very different, but they both actively punish those who publicly differs from central authority, they both try to censor all media.

by phugoid 18y ago

chiffonade 18y ago

> Of course, he himself uses a VPN to dial out. Sounds like class warfare. Same shit, different country.

jacoblyles 18y ago

China is less than a lifetime away from its last civil war. I can see how that would make people fearful and cautious. Allowing populism to run a muck could lead to revolution, especially in a young and poor nation like China. Contrary to the romantic ideal of revolution we have in the West, in practice it is a bloody, miserable, and violent thing. Call me a fascist, but I can understand the Chinese authorities' attempts to short-circuit anti-government movements. I can also understand popular support for such actions, given that the current Chinese government is more competent than all but a handful on this planet. Also - I'm just trying to understand and explore their side here. I do enjoy living in a free society where I can support market anarchism and make frequent anti-government comments. I'm just not so much of an idealist to believe that American-style democracy is optimal for all places, times, and situations. For example, I can understand why the Germans chose to ban Nazi publications in the wake of World War II, free speech be damned.

netsp 18y ago

No Censorship, like like no economic intervention, no prohibitions etc. are not intuitive concepts. Censorship is not bad just because it's bad (like murder or assault). It doesn't usually hurt anyone directly. In fact it's trying to help. If heroin, fascism, homosexuality or anorexia are bad, why not work to stop them? To oppose censorship, you need to accept that in order to censor bad things, you need to have institutions that decide what is bad (don't we already have those?) and a means of blocking them. This will lead to bad things like censoring good things. There is no way around that, just like outrunning light. That's a pretty flimsy argument to make. If it hasn't been drilled into you, you probably won't accept it. This isn't something that just people in the UAE or China will not 'get.' Australians today will not be convinced that banning pedophilia sites is a bad idea. Try separating a debate about the legalization of drugs from a discussion about how harmful it is to take drugs.

est 18y ago

> The hard thing to bend my mind around is the fact that many people in China are in favour of Internet censorship. Wait, where did you get that?

jhancock 18y ago
they are in favor of the same things other country's peoples are in favor of blocking: porn, etc. trouble is once you have a "great firewall" in place, it gets used to block whatever is convenient with no oversight.
phugoid 18y ago
A number of articles I've read, but sorry I haven't recorded any specific links. I've also read about some very patriotic Chinese surfers that go around flaming anything that doesn't conform to the Party line. Same happens here in UAE. From several indicators like this, I have assumed there's quite a bit of similarity between the two situations. The two national cultures are very different, but they both actively punish those who publicly differs from central authority, they both try to censor all media.