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You keep putting up strawmen. Show me the desktop Linux equivalent of Android, not Cyanogenmod. It doesn't exist - and you can measure that failure with any nu

by achiang 14y ago

You keep putting up strawmen. Show me the desktop Linux equivalent of Android, not Cyanogenmod. It doesn't exist - and you can measure that failure with any number of metrics. If Ubuntu can achieve that type of success and protect the freedom of users with the GPL (instead of the permissive BSD model for hardware makers) then we will have accomplished something in the world.

jlgreco 14y ago
You have missed the point. Show me the Android equivalent of Debian. Show me an Android project, with all of the unskilled users that come with it, that is anywhere near as organized as the Debian Project. Show me that legions of unskilled users have allowed this Android project to achieve hardware compatibility at all comparable to what Debian achieves on the desktop. Such a project does not exist. I assert that it does not exist in no small part because they have too many unskilled users, and because hardware support does not materialize as soon as you reach some sort of "critical mass" of unskilled users. Idiot users are toxic; anything that touches them rots. Only corporations that are prepared to completely disregard community involvement are capable of wielding an idiot userbases. Canonical is neither up to that task nor does it even appear to be pretending to be. Why? Probably because the lunatics run the asylum.
- hollerith 14y ago
  >Idiot users are toxic; anything that touches them rots. implying Firefox and Chrome will rot.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Firefox and Chrome have backing organizations that are willing to not rely on community support. (And frankly, I would argue that Firefox has been rotting for years now, though likely for unrelated reasons.)
- mattkevan 14y ago
  Why do we want the layman to be using Linux? To give Valve more Linux customers or something? Idiot users are toxic; anything that touches them rots. Wow. The level of arrogance and elitism on display here is breathtaking. This is why Linux on the desktop is irrelevant. Not the fact that it's incompatible with most mainstream software, not the fact that it's low profile or the fact that most Linux desktops look and function like Windows' retarded younger brother – but because a tiny minority of the otherwise hugely welcoming community set themselves up as some sort of entitled priesthood and actively discourage 'idiot users' from getting involved. New users, even idiot ones, are good. Yes, they bring problems and stupid questions. Everyone has to start somewhere. But more people involved means more investment and helps challenge entrenched assumptions about how things should work. Making things shinier and more accessible does not equal dumbing things down. Why shouldn't everyone be able to use an approachable, thoughtfully designed system that 'just works' and yet shares our values of freedom, community and open source?
  - sixbrx 14y ago
    > Making things shinier and more accessible does not equal dumbing things down. Except in practice, it almost always seems to. Which is why I don't and can't do any significant development, or work of nearly any kind for that matter, on Android, or an iPad.
    - mattkevan 14y ago
      > Which is why I don't and can't do any significant development, or work of nearly any kind for that matter, on Android, or an iPad. That's about picking the right tool for the job, not dumbing down. It's like complaining that a trowel is a dumbed down shovelling device because it can't make any significant headway with digging a massive trench. That said, I develop Drupal sites locally on my jailbroken iPad and it's pretty nifty to have access to a full development environment on something that portable.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Arrogance or not, the fact remains that community developed Android distributions have all the unskilled users Ubuntu could ever dream of having, yet the projects are even worse. Projects that rely on community support simply cannot handle the load. It is a failing of community driven open source to be sure, it would be great if it were otherwise, but I simply see absolutely no reason to think it is not reality. Your theory is nice, and it would be nice if it were reality, but it does not fit the data.
mindcrime 14y ago
Show me the desktop Linux equivalent of Android, not Cyanogenmod. It doesn't exist - and you can measure that failure with any number of metrics. Sounds like what you're really saying is "you can come up with any metrics you want, then define that as failure to justify my position". There's really no objective basis for saying "desktop Linux is a failure", especially when there's no objective standard by which we could say "desktop Linux is a success" either. Like somebody else just said "market share? Who cares?" Market share is a means to an end, not it's own end. Desktop Linux works reasonably well for a certain population of people with a certain set of values. Does anybody expect that desktop Linux should gain Microsoft Windows like ubiquity?

by achiang 14y ago

jlgreco 14y ago

You have missed the point. Show me the Android equivalent of Debian. Show me an Android project, with all of the unskilled users that come with it, that is anywhere near as organized as the Debian Project. Show me that legions of unskilled users have allowed this Android project to achieve hardware compatibility at all comparable to what Debian achieves on the desktop. Such a project does not exist. I assert that it does not exist in no small part because they have too many unskilled users, and because hardware support does not materialize as soon as you reach some sort of "critical mass" of unskilled users. Idiot users are toxic; anything that touches them rots. Only corporations that are prepared to completely disregard community involvement are capable of wielding an idiot userbases. Canonical is neither up to that task nor does it even appear to be pretending to be. Why? Probably because the lunatics run the asylum.

hollerith 14y ago
>Idiot users are toxic; anything that touches them rots. implying Firefox and Chrome will rot.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  Firefox and Chrome have backing organizations that are willing to not rely on community support. (And frankly, I would argue that Firefox has been rotting for years now, though likely for unrelated reasons.)
mattkevan 14y ago
Why do we want the layman to be using Linux? To give Valve more Linux customers or something? Idiot users are toxic; anything that touches them rots. Wow. The level of arrogance and elitism on display here is breathtaking. This is why Linux on the desktop is irrelevant. Not the fact that it's incompatible with most mainstream software, not the fact that it's low profile or the fact that most Linux desktops look and function like Windows' retarded younger brother – but because a tiny minority of the otherwise hugely welcoming community set themselves up as some sort of entitled priesthood and actively discourage 'idiot users' from getting involved. New users, even idiot ones, are good. Yes, they bring problems and stupid questions. Everyone has to start somewhere. But more people involved means more investment and helps challenge entrenched assumptions about how things should work. Making things shinier and more accessible does not equal dumbing things down. Why shouldn't everyone be able to use an approachable, thoughtfully designed system that 'just works' and yet shares our values of freedom, community and open source?
- sixbrx 14y ago
  > Making things shinier and more accessible does not equal dumbing things down. Except in practice, it almost always seems to. Which is why I don't and can't do any significant development, or work of nearly any kind for that matter, on Android, or an iPad.
  - mattkevan 14y ago
    > Which is why I don't and can't do any significant development, or work of nearly any kind for that matter, on Android, or an iPad. That's about picking the right tool for the job, not dumbing down. It's like complaining that a trowel is a dumbed down shovelling device because it can't make any significant headway with digging a massive trench. That said, I develop Drupal sites locally on my jailbroken iPad and it's pretty nifty to have access to a full development environment on something that portable.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  Arrogance or not, the fact remains that community developed Android distributions have all the unskilled users Ubuntu could ever dream of having, yet the projects are even worse. Projects that rely on community support simply cannot handle the load. It is a failing of community driven open source to be sure, it would be great if it were otherwise, but I simply see absolutely no reason to think it is not reality. Your theory is nice, and it would be nice if it were reality, but it does not fit the data.

mindcrime 14y ago

Show me the desktop Linux equivalent of Android, not Cyanogenmod. It doesn't exist - and you can measure that failure with any number of metrics. Sounds like what you're really saying is "you can come up with any metrics you want, then define that as failure to justify my position". There's really no objective basis for saying "desktop Linux is a failure", especially when there's no objective standard by which we could say "desktop Linux is a success" either. Like somebody else just said "market share? Who cares?" Market share is a means to an end, not it's own end. Desktop Linux works reasonably well for a certain population of people with a certain set of values. Does anybody expect that desktop Linux should gain Microsoft Windows like ubiquity?