5 ms·

> the Layman discovers that Linux can possibly be just as shiny as Mac OS. Why do we want the layman to be using Linux? To give Valve more Linux customers or

by jlgreco 14y ago

> the Layman discovers that Linux can possibly be just as shiny as Mac OS. Why do we want the layman to be using Linux? To give Valve more Linux customers or something? We should let them be. Laymen will invariably be better served by Microsoft or Apple, trying to win them over in some sort of misguided drive to "win" market-share seems foolish. Linux should focus on it's niche, and Microsoft and Apple theirs. This market-share envy makes no sense to me. Does Artic Cat stare with envy at Ford's userbase and expend effort trying to get suburban parents to drive their kids to school on snowmobiles? That would just be silly.

zamnedix 14y ago
I agree. This is why I dislike Ubuntu. It constantly tries to appeal to Mac and Windows users.
- hazov 14y ago
  Simply don't use it...
  - VLM 14y ago
    Embrace extend extinguish. Wait until the only way to run FF / Chrome / 3-d accelerated video driver / vi / emacs / something else thats "critical" is to switch to Mir. After all its free, all you have to do is abandon everything else. What could go wrong? Simply don't use it is like telling people to take up a new hobby once theirs has been destroyed. But I don't want to take up a new hobby and I like this one. Sorry, no, someone else has decided to destroy it, so don't complain or try to work around the damage just select a new hobby. Hey, you look like a technical type of person, sorry about the death of free software and all that, but I bet you'd like Ham Radio or maybe advanced model railroading? ...
    - eurleif 14y ago
      If a free software program decided to stop supporting X and Wayland, it would be because no one cared enough to contribute the code for continued support, which would imply that very few people were still choosing to use X or Wayland over Mir. If Mir really ends up being that wonderful, why shouldn't it win? How does one free software program replacing another constitute the death of free software?
    - hazov 14y ago
      vi or emacs? Not going to happen, these are among the most portable software that exists. About Chrome or FF that's only depends on the developers who use the product, I doubt that Google will ever target Mir, actually I believe that the GTK+ backend could target Mir and then boom, all GTK+ applications will then run on Mir, including Chrome. If Google ever comes to target a system with their browser this will probably be Chrome OS. Firefox is another beast, but unless there's a decision to abandon Linux altogether there'll be devs working on it, or on iceweasel, it's Debian cousin, and this will probably run/compile in every Linux (and BSDs?) out there. About 3D this is a shit area, I believe this move signals that Canonical will try to sell ARM computers in the future, there's a know lack of free drivers for GPUs in the ARM world. To see what I mean you'll only have to search for the Raspberry Pi "open source" GPU drivers debacle to see how things are going. This is not a criticism of Broadcom who has it's trade secrets to protect, but there the situation is far from perfect and always will be.
    - javert 14y ago
      Hey VLM, could you take a look at this [1]? I wanted to get your advice on something, but it got buried. Thanks! [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5289406 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5289406
takluyver 14y ago
Practically: I want to be using a system that I can be confident has good hardware & software support, not always double checking everything I buy to make sure it will work. That means getting at least a few % market share so that other companies take it seriously. There's also an ideological angle: many Linux users feel that there's something wrong with a world where only the technically adept can use a free, open source operating system.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  > not always double checking everything I buy to make sure it will work. I feel like we've been there since... 2007? My last several purchases were made with zero caution or research anyway, maybe I've just been getting lucky. > many Linux users feel that there's something wrong with a world where only the technically adept can use a free, open source operating system. That's fine and all, I don't buy into that ideology but it is fine if others do. Perhaps someone should warn these unsuspecting masses that "Linux for your technologically illiterate grandmother" advocates are not as pragmatic as they may claim to be. I feel like these people are dressing Linux up as something that it is not in order to sell it to people who, were it presented honestly, would not pay it a second glance.
  - arjie 14y ago
    Even drivers that were previously mainline have broken. So while the Intel 4965 used to work fine on Linux, it no longer does. And that is for a driver in mainline.
  - takluyver 14y ago
    The hardware situation has got much better, but there are still some problems. Laptops with both integrated and separate GPUs aren't very well supported (so I hear, I don't have one). There's a relatively new scanner in my office that's not supported by SANE. I wanted an external wifi adapter for a desktop recently, and I'm not sure how many will just work with Linux. On the software side, Steam got ported recently, but there's plenty of other software that we'd like to see. Flash is no longer released for Linux, although for now at least I can still watch iPlayer with the last version of Flash that was released. Hopefully HTML5 will have killed it before much longer. Of course we shouldn't pretend that Linux is something that it isn't. If it's not good enough, we aim to improve it. But I honestly think that, if non-technical users got something like Ubuntu 12.04 pre-installed on compatible hardware, it would work perfectly well... except for the expectation, both from users and app developers, that everyone has Windows. Which brings me back to the point about market share.
achiang 14y ago
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of Ubuntu's raison d'etre, which is to bring Free (libre) software to the world. Except the rest of the (consumer) world doesn't value libre as a first-class feature. They want the shiny. The way we get to bring our values to the world is to be commercially relevant. Because otherwise, hardware vendors don't care about you, ISVs ignore you, app developers target other platforms, and so forth. Market share isn't the end goal. It's a means to the end.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  Seems dishonest and manipulative to me. Con a bunch of people into adopting something that doesn't really fit their needs, is just shiny, so that you can use them as leverage... that is not something I am interested in. Meanwhile all of those unskilled users are not without a cost. Free software support infrastructure is not set up to handle that many unskilled users. If Canonical is going to be giving all of those people 3rd party support themselves, that is all well and good, but it seems to me they tend to punt the ball.
  - tg3 14y ago
    I don't think it's conning them into something they don't need. I think it's giving them what they want (shiny, easy to use) so that they have something that they need but don't realize it yet (libre).
  - achiang 14y ago
    The entire reason why desktop Linux has been a failure is exactly because it does not fit the needs of most people. And for that audience, "shiny" is equally important as "featureful". In the modern marketplace, you can't choose either/or. It has to be both. Ubuntu wants to do both and additionally add libre. The strawman fallacy you inferred from my statement has the additional fallacy of incorrect causality. People are initially attracted to Ubuntu for a variety of reasons, and we hope to keep them because we are fit for purpose, not for whatever ideological reason or niche feature, and certainly not due to any sort of con job. Desktop Ubuntu has failed to reach that critical mass of users to be taken seriously by industry (our good friends at Valve notwithstanding), and the only logical place to jumpstart the install base is the mobile world. The mobile market is brutally competitive. Ubuntu will succeed or fail on its own merits, not because of any dishonest manipulation of innocent users.
oneweekwonder 14y ago
Who are we? I only see a Company and a Foundation geared to serve a platform namely Ubuntu and not Linux. Yes Ubuntu is based on a FOSS ecosystem but it does not mean it shares the same goals as linux, whatever the goals of linux are. It means its backed by a company which in my eyes want to bring the wonders of a second unix based operating to the laymen. Only in this one everything is open, and that for me makes sense.
ElliotH 14y ago
I agree. But then the great thing about Linux is we don't have to use the layman distribution. If someone wants to put the time and effort into making something that is great for my grandparents but awful for me then more power to them. Meanwhile the rest of us can stick to the distros that are suited to our needs. I think this state of affairs is much better than any one operating system ruling. So long as we have binary compatibility among the Linuxen then I'm happy.
jiggy2011 14y ago
It could help make the software market more competitive. We can already see that Apple and MS want a lot of power over their platforms to the point of being able to decide what software will run. A more neutral platform in wide use could make the playing field more level thus leading to better software in the long run.
arjie 14y ago
For better or for worse, market share was always Canonical's goal. See their bug #1.

by jlgreco 14y ago

zamnedix 14y ago

I agree. This is why I dislike Ubuntu. It constantly tries to appeal to Mac and Windows users.

hazov 14y ago
Simply don't use it...
- VLM 14y ago
  Embrace extend extinguish. Wait until the only way to run FF / Chrome / 3-d accelerated video driver / vi / emacs / something else thats "critical" is to switch to Mir. After all its free, all you have to do is abandon everything else. What could go wrong? Simply don't use it is like telling people to take up a new hobby once theirs has been destroyed. But I don't want to take up a new hobby and I like this one. Sorry, no, someone else has decided to destroy it, so don't complain or try to work around the damage just select a new hobby. Hey, you look like a technical type of person, sorry about the death of free software and all that, but I bet you'd like Ham Radio or maybe advanced model railroading? ...
  - eurleif 14y ago
    If a free software program decided to stop supporting X and Wayland, it would be because no one cared enough to contribute the code for continued support, which would imply that very few people were still choosing to use X or Wayland over Mir. If Mir really ends up being that wonderful, why shouldn't it win? How does one free software program replacing another constitute the death of free software?
  - hazov 14y ago
    vi or emacs? Not going to happen, these are among the most portable software that exists. About Chrome or FF that's only depends on the developers who use the product, I doubt that Google will ever target Mir, actually I believe that the GTK+ backend could target Mir and then boom, all GTK+ applications will then run on Mir, including Chrome. If Google ever comes to target a system with their browser this will probably be Chrome OS. Firefox is another beast, but unless there's a decision to abandon Linux altogether there'll be devs working on it, or on iceweasel, it's Debian cousin, and this will probably run/compile in every Linux (and BSDs?) out there. About 3D this is a shit area, I believe this move signals that Canonical will try to sell ARM computers in the future, there's a know lack of free drivers for GPUs in the ARM world. To see what I mean you'll only have to search for the Raspberry Pi "open source" GPU drivers debacle to see how things are going. This is not a criticism of Broadcom who has it's trade secrets to protect, but there the situation is far from perfect and always will be.
  - javert 14y ago
    Hey VLM, could you take a look at this [1]? I wanted to get your advice on something, but it got buried. Thanks! [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5289406 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5289406

takluyver 14y ago

Practically: I want to be using a system that I can be confident has good hardware & software support, not always double checking everything I buy to make sure it will work. That means getting at least a few % market share so that other companies take it seriously. There's also an ideological angle: many Linux users feel that there's something wrong with a world where only the technically adept can use a free, open source operating system.

jlgreco 14y ago
> not always double checking everything I buy to make sure it will work. I feel like we've been there since... 2007? My last several purchases were made with zero caution or research anyway, maybe I've just been getting lucky. > many Linux users feel that there's something wrong with a world where only the technically adept can use a free, open source operating system. That's fine and all, I don't buy into that ideology but it is fine if others do. Perhaps someone should warn these unsuspecting masses that "Linux for your technologically illiterate grandmother" advocates are not as pragmatic as they may claim to be. I feel like these people are dressing Linux up as something that it is not in order to sell it to people who, were it presented honestly, would not pay it a second glance.
- arjie 14y ago
  Even drivers that were previously mainline have broken. So while the Intel 4965 used to work fine on Linux, it no longer does. And that is for a driver in mainline.
- takluyver 14y ago
  The hardware situation has got much better, but there are still some problems. Laptops with both integrated and separate GPUs aren't very well supported (so I hear, I don't have one). There's a relatively new scanner in my office that's not supported by SANE. I wanted an external wifi adapter for a desktop recently, and I'm not sure how many will just work with Linux. On the software side, Steam got ported recently, but there's plenty of other software that we'd like to see. Flash is no longer released for Linux, although for now at least I can still watch iPlayer with the last version of Flash that was released. Hopefully HTML5 will have killed it before much longer. Of course we shouldn't pretend that Linux is something that it isn't. If it's not good enough, we aim to improve it. But I honestly think that, if non-technical users got something like Ubuntu 12.04 pre-installed on compatible hardware, it would work perfectly well... except for the expectation, both from users and app developers, that everyone has Windows. Which brings me back to the point about market share.

achiang 14y ago

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of Ubuntu's raison d'etre, which is to bring Free (libre) software to the world. Except the rest of the (consumer) world doesn't value libre as a first-class feature. They want the shiny. The way we get to bring our values to the world is to be commercially relevant. Because otherwise, hardware vendors don't care about you, ISVs ignore you, app developers target other platforms, and so forth. Market share isn't the end goal. It's a means to the end.

jlgreco 14y ago
Seems dishonest and manipulative to me. Con a bunch of people into adopting something that doesn't really fit their needs, is just shiny, so that you can use them as leverage... that is not something I am interested in. Meanwhile all of those unskilled users are not without a cost. Free software support infrastructure is not set up to handle that many unskilled users. If Canonical is going to be giving all of those people 3rd party support themselves, that is all well and good, but it seems to me they tend to punt the ball.
- tg3 14y ago
  I don't think it's conning them into something they don't need. I think it's giving them what they want (shiny, easy to use) so that they have something that they need but don't realize it yet (libre).
- achiang 14y ago
  The entire reason why desktop Linux has been a failure is exactly because it does not fit the needs of most people. And for that audience, "shiny" is equally important as "featureful". In the modern marketplace, you can't choose either/or. It has to be both. Ubuntu wants to do both and additionally add libre. The strawman fallacy you inferred from my statement has the additional fallacy of incorrect causality. People are initially attracted to Ubuntu for a variety of reasons, and we hope to keep them because we are fit for purpose, not for whatever ideological reason or niche feature, and certainly not due to any sort of con job. Desktop Ubuntu has failed to reach that critical mass of users to be taken seriously by industry (our good friends at Valve notwithstanding), and the only logical place to jumpstart the install base is the mobile world. The mobile market is brutally competitive. Ubuntu will succeed or fail on its own merits, not because of any dishonest manipulation of innocent users.

oneweekwonder 14y ago

Who are we? I only see a Company and a Foundation geared to serve a platform namely Ubuntu and not Linux. Yes Ubuntu is based on a FOSS ecosystem but it does not mean it shares the same goals as linux, whatever the goals of linux are. It means its backed by a company which in my eyes want to bring the wonders of a second unix based operating to the laymen. Only in this one everything is open, and that for me makes sense.

ElliotH 14y ago

I agree. But then the great thing about Linux is we don't have to use the layman distribution. If someone wants to put the time and effort into making something that is great for my grandparents but awful for me then more power to them. Meanwhile the rest of us can stick to the distros that are suited to our needs. I think this state of affairs is much better than any one operating system ruling. So long as we have binary compatibility among the Linuxen then I'm happy.

jiggy2011 14y ago

It could help make the software market more competitive. We can already see that Apple and MS want a lot of power over their platforms to the point of being able to decide what software will run. A more neutral platform in wide use could make the playing field more level thus leading to better software in the long run.

arjie 14y ago

For better or for worse, market share was always Canonical's goal. See their bug #1.