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> but how can they justify working with an entity that has such a horrid human rights record? As pointed out yesterday on the Bradley Manning discussion, the U

> but how can they justify working with an entity that has such a horrid human rights record? As pointed out yesterday on the Bradley Manning discussion, the US is starting to get to the point where it can't credibly criticize other countries for their human rights abuses, given what goes on in this country. I don't want this to turn into a discussion of whether the US is worse than North Korea, but both have abused - and continue to abuse - human rights in abysmal ways.

arthulia 14y ago
Wow. I'm happy to turn this into a discussion. North Korea has it worse. There is no way in hell, you are going to convince me that the US is a bigger domestic human rights violator.
- burntsushi 14y ago
  > There is no way in hell, you are going to convince me that the US is a bigger domestic human rights violator. Good, because the grand-parent wasn't trying to.
  - arthulia 14y ago
    Ah, I apologize. It seemed like the poster was making a comparison between the US and NK when he said that the US could no longer credibly criticize NK for human rights violations, and that "both have abused [...] human rights in abysmal ways".
    - burntsushi 14y ago
      That can be true. But that doesn't mean the US is on the same level as NK. Maybe the poster could have been clearer, though.
- kragen 14y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_North_Korea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_North_Korea says, "The total number of prisoners is estimated to be 150,000 to 200,000." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_the_United_States says, "According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS), 2,266,800 adults were incarcerated in U.S. federal and state prisons, and county jails at year-end 2010." It seems like the United States is about an order of magnitude worse, even if you subtract the tiny fraction of US prisoners who are locked up to keep other people safe. And that's not even getting into how the countries' respective foreign policies violate human rights outside their borders, but I suggest reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War to start to get a handle on that. It's not that the Korean rulers are more moral than the US rulers. It's just that they're less effective.
  - theorique 14y ago
    You need to compute this per capita for this to be the slightest bit meaningful.
  - benoits 14y ago
    WTF are you talking about? You are aware that you are comparing a ~300m country with a ~20m one, right? "It seems like the United States is about an order of magnitude worse". your own numbers prove you otherwise. And that's not even counting the proportion of them that are political prisoners (for posing even the tiniest threat to the regime)...
  - furyofantares 14y ago
    Using your numbers USA: 0.71% of the population NK: 0.63-0.83% of the population
  - stordoff 14y ago
    Taking into account population: 200000/24,451,285 = 0.0081 2,266,800/313,914,040 = 0.0072 I'd say those are roughly the same - it certainly doesn't support a claim that the US is an order of magnitude worse.
  - 14y ago
- kamjam 14y ago
  There is no way in hell, you are going to convince me that the US is a bigger domestic human rights violator. This in itself is a disturbing statement. So what are you saying, it's ok as long as the US is not as bad a NK? Very disturbing. In a modern society, in what the US should be leading as a shining example to rest of the world there should be -no violations of human rights-
  - eurleif 14y ago
    I don't think anyone here is saying that what the US does is ok. But this thread is about North Korea, not the US. Why are we bringing the US into the discussion if not to compare it to North Korea?
  - arthulia 14y ago
    Nobody here is saying that. The US treats a lot of people very reprehensibly, but comparing living conditions in the US to living conditions in NK is like comparing a Mercedes to a pogo-stick.
    - kamjam 14y ago
      I understand both your comments, I didn't bring up the US, other people did and I am just responding to that. My comment is not about comparing anything to anything, it's about the throw away comments that "x isn't as bad as y so we're not doing too bad" when instead of pointing fingers we should be looking inward towards our own flaws. People in glasses houses and all that. (Yes yes, it's still not as bad a NK but you should still try to fix these issues)
      - arthulia 14y ago
        The point of http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5320630 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5320630 was to address the fact that you were putting words in my mouth. You said "So what are you saying, it's ok as long as the US is not as bad a NK?" That statement is completely orthogonal to what I was trying to say. Nowhere did I ever imply that something is okay just because it's not as bad as something else. That whole concept is completely nonsensical. If Australia became as bad as NK and then NK grew to be even worse than it was before, Australia wouldn't suddenly be doing something "okay" just because NK has set a new bar for despicable. Hopefully nobody in this thread is so stupid that they couldn't deduce that on their own. What I was saying is that you're a complete asshole if you think the US is "like NK". That sort of comparison is completely inane and extremely insensitive to actual North Koreans actually being executed because their father was caught devising a plan to escape the country or whatever. None of them can leave. The US is NOTHING like North Korea and I wish ill will upon everyone who makes the comparison. I hope you all sit on a thumbtack or something. The day no citizens can leave the US is the day I will acknowledge a similarity between the US and NK.
raverbashing 14y ago
Everybody has the right to leave the US Nobody has the right to leave NK That alone says loads. The most essential freedom is the freedom to disagree and leave. North Koreans don't have that right.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- felipeko 14y ago
  Oh well, that's just because US thinks it owns every other country. Just see what they tried to do with Assange and Kim Dotcom. They could've done that countless times with less public people.
  - tadfisher 14y ago
    I suppose having an extradition treaty with another country implies ownership, now. Thanks for having an enlightening discussion!
    - felipeko 14y ago
      The treaty only work when their actions constitute a crime on their resident country. In both cases this is not true. This didn't stop US from bullying NZ and UK. NZ police even acted unlawfully because of this bullying.
- Nursie 14y ago
  "Everybody has the right to leave the US" Like all generalisations (even this one) that is completely incorrect. I believe there are a lot of people in US custody who are denied that right? I'm not saying they shouldn't be where they are, or that they should have the right to leave, but your blanket statement is wrong. Also see Dmitry Sklyarov for an example of when stepping on the wrong corporate toes can get you into all sorts of trouble in the USA.
  - raverbashing 14y ago
archagon 14y ago
Not to the extent of keeping thousands of prisoners in Holocaust-like conditions, I think.
- chris_mahan 14y ago
  US prisons are no place for civilized people.
doktrin 14y ago
>I don't want this to turn into a discussion of whether the US is worse than North Korea, but both have abused - and continue to abuse - human rights in abysmal ways. Sorry, no. Making the comparison assumes there's some parity, which is completely misleading. In a different context, it's about as outlandish as claiming the space shuttle is really no different from the wright flyer. After all, both are capable of flight.

arthulia 14y ago

Wow. I'm happy to turn this into a discussion. North Korea has it worse. There is no way in hell, you are going to convince me that the US is a bigger domestic human rights violator.

burntsushi 14y ago
> There is no way in hell, you are going to convince me that the US is a bigger domestic human rights violator. Good, because the grand-parent wasn't trying to.
- arthulia 14y ago
  Ah, I apologize. It seemed like the poster was making a comparison between the US and NK when he said that the US could no longer credibly criticize NK for human rights violations, and that "both have abused [...] human rights in abysmal ways".
  - burntsushi 14y ago
    That can be true. But that doesn't mean the US is on the same level as NK. Maybe the poster could have been clearer, though.
kragen 14y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_North_Korea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_North_Korea says, "The total number of prisoners is estimated to be 150,000 to 200,000." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_the_United_States says, "According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS), 2,266,800 adults were incarcerated in U.S. federal and state prisons, and county jails at year-end 2010." It seems like the United States is about an order of magnitude worse, even if you subtract the tiny fraction of US prisoners who are locked up to keep other people safe. And that's not even getting into how the countries' respective foreign policies violate human rights outside their borders, but I suggest reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War to start to get a handle on that. It's not that the Korean rulers are more moral than the US rulers. It's just that they're less effective.
- theorique 14y ago
  You need to compute this per capita for this to be the slightest bit meaningful.
- benoits 14y ago
  WTF are you talking about? You are aware that you are comparing a ~300m country with a ~20m one, right? "It seems like the United States is about an order of magnitude worse". your own numbers prove you otherwise. And that's not even counting the proportion of them that are political prisoners (for posing even the tiniest threat to the regime)...
- furyofantares 14y ago
  Using your numbers USA: 0.71% of the population NK: 0.63-0.83% of the population
- stordoff 14y ago
  Taking into account population: 200000/24,451,285 = 0.0081 2,266,800/313,914,040 = 0.0072 I'd say those are roughly the same - it certainly doesn't support a claim that the US is an order of magnitude worse.
- 14y ago
kamjam 14y ago
There is no way in hell, you are going to convince me that the US is a bigger domestic human rights violator. This in itself is a disturbing statement. So what are you saying, it's ok as long as the US is not as bad a NK? Very disturbing. In a modern society, in what the US should be leading as a shining example to rest of the world there should be -no violations of human rights-
- eurleif 14y ago
  I don't think anyone here is saying that what the US does is ok. But this thread is about North Korea, not the US. Why are we bringing the US into the discussion if not to compare it to North Korea?
- arthulia 14y ago
  Nobody here is saying that. The US treats a lot of people very reprehensibly, but comparing living conditions in the US to living conditions in NK is like comparing a Mercedes to a pogo-stick.
  - kamjam 14y ago
    I understand both your comments, I didn't bring up the US, other people did and I am just responding to that. My comment is not about comparing anything to anything, it's about the throw away comments that "x isn't as bad as y so we're not doing too bad" when instead of pointing fingers we should be looking inward towards our own flaws. People in glasses houses and all that. (Yes yes, it's still not as bad a NK but you should still try to fix these issues)
    - arthulia 14y ago
      The point of http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5320630 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5320630 was to address the fact that you were putting words in my mouth. You said "So what are you saying, it's ok as long as the US is not as bad a NK?" That statement is completely orthogonal to what I was trying to say. Nowhere did I ever imply that something is okay just because it's not as bad as something else. That whole concept is completely nonsensical. If Australia became as bad as NK and then NK grew to be even worse than it was before, Australia wouldn't suddenly be doing something "okay" just because NK has set a new bar for despicable. Hopefully nobody in this thread is so stupid that they couldn't deduce that on their own. What I was saying is that you're a complete asshole if you think the US is "like NK". That sort of comparison is completely inane and extremely insensitive to actual North Koreans actually being executed because their father was caught devising a plan to escape the country or whatever. None of them can leave. The US is NOTHING like North Korea and I wish ill will upon everyone who makes the comparison. I hope you all sit on a thumbtack or something. The day no citizens can leave the US is the day I will acknowledge a similarity between the US and NK.

raverbashing 14y ago

Everybody has the right to leave the US Nobody has the right to leave NK That alone says loads. The most essential freedom is the freedom to disagree and leave. North Koreans don't have that right.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
felipeko 14y ago
Oh well, that's just because US thinks it owns every other country. Just see what they tried to do with Assange and Kim Dotcom. They could've done that countless times with less public people.
- tadfisher 14y ago
  I suppose having an extradition treaty with another country implies ownership, now. Thanks for having an enlightening discussion!
  - felipeko 14y ago
    The treaty only work when their actions constitute a crime on their resident country. In both cases this is not true. This didn't stop US from bullying NZ and UK. NZ police even acted unlawfully because of this bullying.
Nursie 14y ago
"Everybody has the right to leave the US" Like all generalisations (even this one) that is completely incorrect. I believe there are a lot of people in US custody who are denied that right? I'm not saying they shouldn't be where they are, or that they should have the right to leave, but your blanket statement is wrong. Also see Dmitry Sklyarov for an example of when stepping on the wrong corporate toes can get you into all sorts of trouble in the USA.
- raverbashing 14y ago

archagon 14y ago

Not to the extent of keeping thousands of prisoners in Holocaust-like conditions, I think.

chris_mahan 14y ago
US prisons are no place for civilized people.

doktrin 14y ago

>I don't want this to turn into a discussion of whether the US is worse than North Korea, but both have abused - and continue to abuse - human rights in abysmal ways. Sorry, no. Making the comparison assumes there's some parity, which is completely misleading. In a different context, it's about as outlandish as claiming the space shuttle is really no different from the wright flyer. After all, both are capable of flight.