4 ms·

Software engineers earn a multiple of the median wage, but not an order of magnitude more. The jobs our work displaces are order of magnitude material. If anyth

by Joeri 14y ago

Software engineers earn a multiple of the median wage, but not an order of magnitude more. The jobs our work displaces are order of magnitude material. If anything, compared to the value we create, we're grossly underpaid. I think this is due to the inability of employers to see us as fundamentally different from the workers our automation displaces. The perception remains (and i've seen this first hand) that developers are replaceable, and this means that there are limits to how much you're considered entitled to.

jandrewrogers 14y ago
I would agree that some software engineers are underpaid. However, it is not legally enforced in the US unlike many countries, it is more of a statistical phenomenon. Many software engineers grossly underestimate the other costs associated with their efforts, which I state as a software engineer by trade with P&L responsibility. Most software engineers find pay that is at the level of their value to a first approximation. The reality is that "developers" are replaceable, it is not just a perception. And by "developer" I mean developers that have a few years of experience under their belt but no real differentiating skills. This is an important distinction; I've met developers in their 40s with no differentiating skills despite decades of work history and developers fresh out of school that could materially differentiate themselves from ordinary developers. It is an important distinction. Developers with interesting skills are a lot less replaceable. To be honest, I don't need any "developers" in the generic sense. My company does not hire them. We hire people with material skills that (1) we need and (2) are not widely available in the pool of people that call themselves "developers". I literally can't use the rest no matter how the conversation is framed. We pay well above the median wage for the developers we do hire because we know we are hiring them for their unique and valuable skill set. We absolutely pay for talent but have no interest in average talent.
- pc86 14y ago
  So what does it take for one to differentiate themselves?
stephencanon 14y ago
US median household income in 2012 was $45,018 [Wikipedia]. There are certainly two-engineer households that make an order of magnitude more; actually there are individual engineers at large successful companies who make that much if you include stock and option grants (which you should, because the IRS certainly does). Most engineers aren't so well-compensated. Most doctors aren't neurosurgeons, either.
- guelo 14y ago
  If you're talking about $450k then you're talking about a 99 percentile minority.
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    $450k is easily achievable by a household consisting of two higher end engineers.
  - stephencanon 14y ago
    99th percentile minority is still something like 2.5 million working adults. Some of them are engineers.
- bd_at_rivenhill 14y ago
  There are numerous individual software developers in finance that are easily making $450,000+ cash without resorting to stock and option grants.
  - Joeri 14y ago
    Finance is a bad example because the traders that software replaces make an order of magnitude more than median wage. So, the software deeloper in finance could be underpaid making an order of magnitude above median.
  - nilkn 14y ago
    Where are these developers at, and do they have decent working conditions and hours? $450k may not sound so glamorous if you work 80 hours a week in a hell hole. I looked at Jane Street in college but it seems they start their developers at $100k with no bonus, i.e., less than Google, Facebook, etc., even though Manhattan is even more expensive than the Valley.
khuey 14y ago
The best example of this is revenue per employee. Google and Apple have close to $1,000,000 revenue per employee. How many of their engineers are bringing home more than 20% of that?

by Joeri 14y ago

jandrewrogers 14y ago

I would agree that some software engineers are underpaid. However, it is not legally enforced in the US unlike many countries, it is more of a statistical phenomenon. Many software engineers grossly underestimate the other costs associated with their efforts, which I state as a software engineer by trade with P&L responsibility. Most software engineers find pay that is at the level of their value to a first approximation. The reality is that "developers" are replaceable, it is not just a perception. And by "developer" I mean developers that have a few years of experience under their belt but no real differentiating skills. This is an important distinction; I've met developers in their 40s with no differentiating skills despite decades of work history and developers fresh out of school that could materially differentiate themselves from ordinary developers. It is an important distinction. Developers with interesting skills are a lot less replaceable. To be honest, I don't need any "developers" in the generic sense. My company does not hire them. We hire people with material skills that (1) we need and (2) are not widely available in the pool of people that call themselves "developers". I literally can't use the rest no matter how the conversation is framed. We pay well above the median wage for the developers we do hire because we know we are hiring them for their unique and valuable skill set. We absolutely pay for talent but have no interest in average talent.

pc86 14y ago
So what does it take for one to differentiate themselves?

stephencanon 14y ago

US median household income in 2012 was $45,018 [Wikipedia]. There are certainly two-engineer households that make an order of magnitude more; actually there are individual engineers at large successful companies who make that much if you include stock and option grants (which you should, because the IRS certainly does). Most engineers aren't so well-compensated. Most doctors aren't neurosurgeons, either.

guelo 14y ago
If you're talking about $450k then you're talking about a 99 percentile minority.
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  $450k is easily achievable by a household consisting of two higher end engineers.
- stephencanon 14y ago
  99th percentile minority is still something like 2.5 million working adults. Some of them are engineers.
bd_at_rivenhill 14y ago
There are numerous individual software developers in finance that are easily making $450,000+ cash without resorting to stock and option grants.
- Joeri 14y ago
  Finance is a bad example because the traders that software replaces make an order of magnitude more than median wage. So, the software deeloper in finance could be underpaid making an order of magnitude above median.
- nilkn 14y ago
  Where are these developers at, and do they have decent working conditions and hours? $450k may not sound so glamorous if you work 80 hours a week in a hell hole. I looked at Jane Street in college but it seems they start their developers at $100k with no bonus, i.e., less than Google, Facebook, etc., even though Manhattan is even more expensive than the Valley.

khuey 14y ago

The best example of this is revenue per employee. Google and Apple have close to $1,000,000 revenue per employee. How many of their engineers are bringing home more than 20% of that?