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This would be better titled "The 'What Schools Don’t Teach' video does not accurately depict the median life of a programmer". Which is true, and he gives a lo

This would be better titled "The 'What Schools Don’t Teach' video does not accurately depict the median life of a programmer". Which is true, and he gives a lot of points to support it, and I'd nod my head for the entire article if that was the title. From my perspective though none of his points seem to support his chosen title, "Programming is not for everybody." (It gets a lot sillier when you realize that nobody would title an article "Logic is not for everybody.") John McCarthy (AI, Lisp) once said something akin to: "I think everyone should learn programming. It's the language we'll use to talk to our servants." I think there is something in programming for everybody. It doesn't have to be compiler design or making the next facebook. Even if its just understanding what an algorithm means, so that you can write clear directions (a recipe, after all, is just an algorithm for preparing food, complete with for/while loops, etc). Programming is just logic plus communication. And being able to convey ideas more clearly and more accurately is a delightful skill that will find uses all over life, regardless of if your job is programmer, EMT, chef, etc.

jd007 14y ago
You imply that logical thinking is a desirable trait for everybody, which may not be necessarily true. I think that programming teaches you a way of thinking that you cannot really get rid of after acquiring it, and though good for a lot of people, may not be good for everybody. For example some artists may not want to "limit" their thought process to just logical, to more freely connect with and express their emotions (by no means am I implying that programmers lack of emotional connections). But after being trained to program it may be quite difficult to think any other way but logically. I want to live in a world where I can find and talk to somebody who has not learned to program, who does not have any idea how computers work, but is exceptional in some other completely unrelated field, to see how they think, what their opinions are (which could be very different from my own yet extremely interesting). A world where (nearly) everybody has learned to program means it won't be possible (or at least very difficult) for me to do that. Getting everybody to program of course has its many benefits to society, but the "What Schools Don’t Teach" video and similar articles always seem to imply that there is absolutely no downside, which I personally believe may not be true.
- robbrown451 14y ago
  So I want to live in a world where I can talk to people who have never learned counting or arithmetic. So I think we should make sure those people still exist, by denying a certain percentage of the population a chance to learn about them. Seriously, what the hell?
  - jd007 14y ago
    You are stretching the issue a bit far IMO. Also counting and arithmetic is kind of hard NOT to learn even if you do not specifically learn it from somebody or in school because it is too essential to living in society. Programming is hardly the case. And the whole thing is not about my selfish reasons to satisfy my curiosity, it's about diversity in the thinking process of people in society. Programming changes how some people think and reason, and it may not be the best for everybody in the entire world to learn, regardless of profession. That is my entire point.
    - doktrin 14y ago
      It's an absurd line of reasoning. You attacked the presupposition that everyone should learn basic logic with the further presupposition that learning to reason logically is detrimental to the thought process of certain classes or society. Aside from being needlessly exclusionary, the entire notion that learning basic programming "warps" your way of thinking is about as ridiculous as the inverse - that learning about color theory and basic art & design irrevocably turns us into illogical über right-brained caricatures.
      - jd007 14y ago
        I never said people should not learn basic logic. What I said/meant was that learning to program may shift how people approach problems, in a way that favors logical thinking, which may not be ideal for everybody. Programmers tend to approach and react to issues/problems with reasoning, but for some people (maybe some artists for example), they may prefer to be more emotional and irrational. In my opinion, programming is not as simple of other forms of knowledge such as color theory. Knowing color theory doesn't mean you can paint well, just as knowing the syntax of a language doesn't mean you can write good programs. Programming is more about a way of thinking, and my entire point was that this way of thinking may not be beneficial/desirable to everybody in society.
hkmurakami 14y ago
>John McCarthy (AI, Lisp) once said something akin to: "I think everyone should learn programming. It's the language we'll use to talk to our servants." I kind of see coding (or scripting) similar to how I see writing. Not all of us are good enough, motivated enough, or would even enjoy writing for a living. But because the written and spoken language drives much of the world today, it's important to have a strong grasp of language, be able see how it is being used for or against you and be able to use it to your advantage. The ability to read and write code is similar. Being able to write even simple scripts or simple data filters can multiply your productivity or give you new perspective on how to frame problems and approaches to solutions. Without a strong grip on the written and spoken language, we are at mercy of others who wield it better than us. Code is in many ways similar to this. I may never be a a master writer or a master programmer (or even a 'good' one for either), but knowing the basics can't hurt. Of course, we should note that writing and coding will have "diminishing returns" for most everyone. We should exercise discretion in how far we should take our pursuit and have good judgment on what we expect to get from either discipline.
- paganel 14y ago
  > I kind of see coding (or scripting) similar to how I see writing. Not all of us are good enough, motivated enough, or would even enjoy writing for a living. And this is why it stroke me as odd when one of my younger (and intelligent) non-IT colleagues told me a couple of months ago "I cannot compose this fancy school essay, why cannot they ask us straight what they need written down?". That's when I realized that even plain writing (as in composing) is not for everyone, there are people who back off when they hear that they need to "invent" stuff to be put on paper/screen/word editor.
- da3da 14y ago
  I think the difference is we all come in contact with writing every day. So literacy is required if you want to get around in the world and if you want to communicate with others. Almost no non-programmers encounter code in their day to day lives. To me it doesn't make since for the majority of people to learn to code, because without practice their skills are just going to atrophy. Why add a ton of new people who can only write shitty code? We already have enough of those, I don't see the reason to add more. Programming well is hard and if you don't spend a lot of time with it you'll never get good.
dinkumthinkum 14y ago
I think you're completely wrong. I don't see why you think an article title "Logic is not for everybody" is silly. Really, you think it is silly? I am not attempting any sort of humor here but have you ever met members of the general public? Logic is clearly not for everyone; I don't think that is a controversial statement at all, not in the slightest.
- tiwazz 14y ago
  I think his argument was that it should be, not that it currently is.
  - dinkumthinkum 14y ago
    Well, I mean actually that it is not in the sense that it never will be. It may not sound nice but just basic logic is not for everyone. Now if you mean some future utopia or something ... that's not really interesting to me. In such a case then you could never fault someone for saying "everyone should be maximally good at everything" but it has no verisimilitude with reality.
- tikhonj 14y ago
  You know, at one point, somebody would have been writing that same comment for literacy. Or, as the case may be, not writing it :P. I have met members of the general public. (Wow, I can't think of how to use that phrase without sounding at least a little bit patronizing. Fine. I am a little bit patronizing.) Many of them should have taken a logic class at some point. At least enough not to fall for obvious nonsense. At least enough to reason and argue avoiding fallacies and obviously incorrect positions. At least enough, in short, to think properly. Maybe a deep understanding of different logic systems is not for everybody. They probably don't need to study the predicate calculus. But logic in general? Everybody needs at least a bit.
  - Domenic_S 14y ago
    > Everybody needs at least a bit. This is a bit of a myopic view that assumes everyone has the capability to learn logic. (Un)surprising truth: some people are dumb, and simply can't grasp it.
aufreak3 14y ago
> "being able to convey ideas more clearly and more accurately is a delightful skill that will find uses all over life, regardless of if your job is programmer, EMT, chef, etc." Very well said! The "programming is not for everybody" arguments seem to come from looking at programming as the activity of coding at the master level. Anyone who's gotten anything done by asking someone to do it, or has found some information by asking a question of someone has engaged in the core activity of programming - i.e. the thinking behind what needs to be done and what information is needed for some task at hand and the communication of that thinking. The making aspect of programming should also not be overlooked. Just as making your own table is fun even though you may not have made a good table by carpentry standards, or you may paint something to decorate your wall even if won't go for a penny on ebay, coaxing a machine to help you with something is also satisfying.
- seanp2k2 14y ago
  And this is why whiteboard programming interviews where syntax matters are toxic. I almost have the cojones these days to walk out as soon as they pull that crap, but it's a big red flag to me when they want the REAL regex to validate an e-mail address (though typically asking them if they want "the most naive implementation or the RFC 2822-compliant one" is enough to shut them up. http://www.regular-expressions.info/email.html http://www.regular-expressions.info/email.html if you don't get why this is a bad idea (it's the equiv. of memorizing pi to the thousandth digit).
cpressey 14y ago
After the third paragraph, I interpreted the title as "Programming is Not [the Career Choice] for Everybody".
- jasonlotito 14y ago
  I got that sense as well. Which led me to the ask: so what is the point of this post? To spend many more paragraphs essentially saying what we already know. Cooking is not for everybody. But we still learn to cook. Mechanics is not for everybody. But I was still out their working on the car yesterday. Politics is not for everybody. But I still vote. Accounting is not for everybody. But I still do my taxes and balance my budget. It can all be summed up with one sentence: Every job is not for everyone.
lhnz 14y ago
A recipe is not an algorithm, it is a heuristic.
mcgwiz 14y ago
> It gets a lot sillier when you realize that nobody would title an article "Logic is not for everybody." > Programming is just logic plus communication. Fair enough, but you are defending programming as a hobby or academic pursuit. That is not the context established by the original video, which was programming as a profession. Typically: Professional programming ≈ Logic + Communication + Fat Salary + Bureaucracy/Politics - Predictability - Sufficient Time/Dev Resources - Personal Time If anything, perhaps some ambiguity can be removed by titling it "Professional programming is not for everybody".
jmmcd 14y ago
John McCarthy (AI, Lisp) once said something akin to: "I think everyone should learn programming. It's the language we'll use to talk to our servants." I want to use this great quote to advertise a programming class I'm teaching. Can't find the original. Any ideas?
- lutusp 14y ago
  I went looking for it, and it appears in a handful of places: https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22learn+programming%22+%22talk+to+our+servants%22 https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22le... But the sparseness of the hits leads me to think it's not a real quote, or it's been reworded -- something like that.
  - jmmcd 14y ago
    That search (and lots others I tried) just returns the above HN post.
  - jmmcd 14y ago
    Finally found it here http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/sayings.html http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/sayings.html

jd007 14y ago

You imply that logical thinking is a desirable trait for everybody, which may not be necessarily true. I think that programming teaches you a way of thinking that you cannot really get rid of after acquiring it, and though good for a lot of people, may not be good for everybody. For example some artists may not want to "limit" their thought process to just logical, to more freely connect with and express their emotions (by no means am I implying that programmers lack of emotional connections). But after being trained to program it may be quite difficult to think any other way but logically. I want to live in a world where I can find and talk to somebody who has not learned to program, who does not have any idea how computers work, but is exceptional in some other completely unrelated field, to see how they think, what their opinions are (which could be very different from my own yet extremely interesting). A world where (nearly) everybody has learned to program means it won't be possible (or at least very difficult) for me to do that. Getting everybody to program of course has its many benefits to society, but the "What Schools Don’t Teach" video and similar articles always seem to imply that there is absolutely no downside, which I personally believe may not be true.

robbrown451 14y ago
So I want to live in a world where I can talk to people who have never learned counting or arithmetic. So I think we should make sure those people still exist, by denying a certain percentage of the population a chance to learn about them. Seriously, what the hell?
- jd007 14y ago
  You are stretching the issue a bit far IMO. Also counting and arithmetic is kind of hard NOT to learn even if you do not specifically learn it from somebody or in school because it is too essential to living in society. Programming is hardly the case. And the whole thing is not about my selfish reasons to satisfy my curiosity, it's about diversity in the thinking process of people in society. Programming changes how some people think and reason, and it may not be the best for everybody in the entire world to learn, regardless of profession. That is my entire point.
  - doktrin 14y ago
    It's an absurd line of reasoning. You attacked the presupposition that everyone should learn basic logic with the further presupposition that learning to reason logically is detrimental to the thought process of certain classes or society. Aside from being needlessly exclusionary, the entire notion that learning basic programming "warps" your way of thinking is about as ridiculous as the inverse - that learning about color theory and basic art & design irrevocably turns us into illogical über right-brained caricatures.
    - jd007 14y ago
      I never said people should not learn basic logic. What I said/meant was that learning to program may shift how people approach problems, in a way that favors logical thinking, which may not be ideal for everybody. Programmers tend to approach and react to issues/problems with reasoning, but for some people (maybe some artists for example), they may prefer to be more emotional and irrational. In my opinion, programming is not as simple of other forms of knowledge such as color theory. Knowing color theory doesn't mean you can paint well, just as knowing the syntax of a language doesn't mean you can write good programs. Programming is more about a way of thinking, and my entire point was that this way of thinking may not be beneficial/desirable to everybody in society.

hkmurakami 14y ago

>John McCarthy (AI, Lisp) once said something akin to: "I think everyone should learn programming. It's the language we'll use to talk to our servants." I kind of see coding (or scripting) similar to how I see writing. Not all of us are good enough, motivated enough, or would even enjoy writing for a living. But because the written and spoken language drives much of the world today, it's important to have a strong grasp of language, be able see how it is being used for or against you and be able to use it to your advantage. The ability to read and write code is similar. Being able to write even simple scripts or simple data filters can multiply your productivity or give you new perspective on how to frame problems and approaches to solutions. Without a strong grip on the written and spoken language, we are at mercy of others who wield it better than us. Code is in many ways similar to this. I may never be a a master writer or a master programmer (or even a 'good' one for either), but knowing the basics can't hurt. Of course, we should note that writing and coding will have "diminishing returns" for most everyone. We should exercise discretion in how far we should take our pursuit and have good judgment on what we expect to get from either discipline.

paganel 14y ago
> I kind of see coding (or scripting) similar to how I see writing. Not all of us are good enough, motivated enough, or would even enjoy writing for a living. And this is why it stroke me as odd when one of my younger (and intelligent) non-IT colleagues told me a couple of months ago "I cannot compose this fancy school essay, why cannot they ask us straight what they need written down?". That's when I realized that even plain writing (as in composing) is not for everyone, there are people who back off when they hear that they need to "invent" stuff to be put on paper/screen/word editor.
da3da 14y ago
I think the difference is we all come in contact with writing every day. So literacy is required if you want to get around in the world and if you want to communicate with others. Almost no non-programmers encounter code in their day to day lives. To me it doesn't make since for the majority of people to learn to code, because without practice their skills are just going to atrophy. Why add a ton of new people who can only write shitty code? We already have enough of those, I don't see the reason to add more. Programming well is hard and if you don't spend a lot of time with it you'll never get good.

dinkumthinkum 14y ago

I think you're completely wrong. I don't see why you think an article title "Logic is not for everybody" is silly. Really, you think it is silly? I am not attempting any sort of humor here but have you ever met members of the general public? Logic is clearly not for everyone; I don't think that is a controversial statement at all, not in the slightest.

tiwazz 14y ago
I think his argument was that it should be, not that it currently is.
- dinkumthinkum 14y ago
  Well, I mean actually that it is not in the sense that it never will be. It may not sound nice but just basic logic is not for everyone. Now if you mean some future utopia or something ... that's not really interesting to me. In such a case then you could never fault someone for saying "everyone should be maximally good at everything" but it has no verisimilitude with reality.
tikhonj 14y ago
You know, at one point, somebody would have been writing that same comment for literacy. Or, as the case may be, not writing it :P. I have met members of the general public. (Wow, I can't think of how to use that phrase without sounding at least a little bit patronizing. Fine. I am a little bit patronizing.) Many of them should have taken a logic class at some point. At least enough not to fall for obvious nonsense. At least enough to reason and argue avoiding fallacies and obviously incorrect positions. At least enough, in short, to think properly. Maybe a deep understanding of different logic systems is not for everybody. They probably don't need to study the predicate calculus. But logic in general? Everybody needs at least a bit.
- Domenic_S 14y ago
  > Everybody needs at least a bit. This is a bit of a myopic view that assumes everyone has the capability to learn logic. (Un)surprising truth: some people are dumb, and simply can't grasp it.

aufreak3 14y ago

> "being able to convey ideas more clearly and more accurately is a delightful skill that will find uses all over life, regardless of if your job is programmer, EMT, chef, etc." Very well said! The "programming is not for everybody" arguments seem to come from looking at programming as the activity of coding at the master level. Anyone who's gotten anything done by asking someone to do it, or has found some information by asking a question of someone has engaged in the core activity of programming - i.e. the thinking behind what needs to be done and what information is needed for some task at hand and the communication of that thinking. The making aspect of programming should also not be overlooked. Just as making your own table is fun even though you may not have made a good table by carpentry standards, or you may paint something to decorate your wall even if won't go for a penny on ebay, coaxing a machine to help you with something is also satisfying.

seanp2k2 14y ago
And this is why whiteboard programming interviews where syntax matters are toxic. I almost have the cojones these days to walk out as soon as they pull that crap, but it's a big red flag to me when they want the REAL regex to validate an e-mail address (though typically asking them if they want "the most naive implementation or the RFC 2822-compliant one" is enough to shut them up. http://www.regular-expressions.info/email.html http://www.regular-expressions.info/email.html if you don't get why this is a bad idea (it's the equiv. of memorizing pi to the thousandth digit).

cpressey 14y ago

After the third paragraph, I interpreted the title as "Programming is Not [the Career Choice] for Everybody".

jasonlotito 14y ago
I got that sense as well. Which led me to the ask: so what is the point of this post? To spend many more paragraphs essentially saying what we already know. Cooking is not for everybody. But we still learn to cook. Mechanics is not for everybody. But I was still out their working on the car yesterday. Politics is not for everybody. But I still vote. Accounting is not for everybody. But I still do my taxes and balance my budget. It can all be summed up with one sentence: Every job is not for everyone.

lhnz 14y ago

A recipe is not an algorithm, it is a heuristic.

mcgwiz 14y ago

> It gets a lot sillier when you realize that nobody would title an article "Logic is not for everybody." > Programming is just logic plus communication. Fair enough, but you are defending programming as a hobby or academic pursuit. That is not the context established by the original video, which was programming as a profession. Typically: Professional programming ≈ Logic + Communication + Fat Salary + Bureaucracy/Politics - Predictability - Sufficient Time/Dev Resources - Personal Time If anything, perhaps some ambiguity can be removed by titling it "Professional programming is not for everybody".

jmmcd 14y ago

John McCarthy (AI, Lisp) once said something akin to: "I think everyone should learn programming. It's the language we'll use to talk to our servants." I want to use this great quote to advertise a programming class I'm teaching. Can't find the original. Any ideas?

lutusp 14y ago
I went looking for it, and it appears in a handful of places: https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22learn+programming%22+%22talk+to+our+servants%22 https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22le... But the sparseness of the hits leads me to think it's not a real quote, or it's been reworded -- something like that.
- jmmcd 14y ago
  That search (and lots others I tried) just returns the above HN post.
- jmmcd 14y ago
  Finally found it here http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/sayings.html http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/sayings.html