7 ms·

I feel like confirmation bias is in play when you read about successful people who have dropped out of school, succeed, and then blogged about it. You have to k

I feel like confirmation bias is in play when you read about successful people who have dropped out of school, succeed, and then blogged about it. You have to keep in mind the hordes of people who have followeded a similar path only to archive not enough to blog about. Self education may appeal to many of us here, but it applies to less than it appeals to.

jdotjdot 14y ago
Yes, but you could say the same thing about people who went to traditional schools. How many people went through that system and succeeded--and then how many people went through that system and didn't? I agree with you in that I don't know we have the data to argue that apprenticeships are better, but I don't think we have data to argue that they're worse either, and I can't see how having it as an option is bad at all.
- jmduke 14y ago
  > Yes, but you could say the same thing about people who went to traditional schools. How many people went through that system and succeeded--and then how many people went through that system and didn't? I think the whole point is that, statistically speaking, many many more people go through the system and succeed than otherwise. That's why it's the system. (I'm not saying that's still true.)
  - drcube 14y ago
    Yeah, but correlation isn't causation. Maybe unsuccessful people on average will be unsuccessful in school and the successful people on average will be successful in school. While school itself has no actual impact on success. I'm not saying I believe that, but I haven't seen it ruled out yet.
  - ams6110 14y ago
    More people start an undergraduate education than finish it. If you're only looking at people who got through the system, you've already filtered out a number of those who have low motivation or low ability.
    - jdotjdot 14y ago
      More people start _anything_ than finish it. Since starting is a prerequisite for finishing, it is always the case that a maximum of 100% will finish, and likely fewer. If your point is that more people start school than finish and somehow that weeds people out, you could also say the same thing about apprenticeships.
xal 14y ago
Obviously - the system clearly doesn't just produce huge successes. I simply wanted to tell my story because it's sufficiently different from most people's background to be interesting, or so I was told.
- rossjudson 14y ago
  You've been told right. It was news to me that Germany had such a well-organized system of apprenticeships. It explains a lot.
ihsw 14y ago
There is a very long sliding scale of success attributed formalized education (either through academic or vocational studies) or otherwise garnered from personal experience. There is value in both, and the confirmation bias is apparent but it may not have been the intention of the author.
jacquesm 14y ago
> Self education may appeal to many of us here, but it applies to less than it appeals to. I think a key ingredient is that you have to love to learn, that you would do it regardless of circumstance and that learning itself is your passion. If that's the case you can safely drop out of education, but if the motivations are to some extent external then better stay put.
doktrin 14y ago
> Self education may appeal to many of us here, but it applies to less than it appeals to. That's missing the major point of the piece, IMHO. The OP isn't describing "self education", and (coming from a US perspective) is not even a typical drop out. What's being described here is a vocational pattern of learning, where on-the-job experience is backed up with classroom instruction. That's not exactly what "drop out" or "self educated" imply in the US.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  Yup. In the UK we are trying to reconstruct the 'dual system' and we have things that are called apprenticeships but not quite as well organised as the ones they have in Germany. The OP is not a drop-out. He has followed an established path!
  - walshemj 14y ago
    Ah you mean the Torry plan to bring back the 11 plus and ship off poor kids to dumbed down Modern Apprenticeships so they can stack shelves at safeway.
    - meaty 14y ago
      You hit the nail on the head. Except they also have the "back to work scheme" which means they don't even have to pay them to stack shelves in safeway (or Morrisons as it now is).
      - keithpeter 14y ago
        Yes, that 'scheme' has lost me a really good student who was attending a college course off his own bat. He has been required to waste his time totally in a mickey mouse scheme that won't get him anywhere. We will try to catch him up when he is let out.
        meaty 14y ago
        That sucks. My nephew managed to get out of it by calling his manager at Tesco "fucking spineless arse licking cunt". Worked wonders. He now fixes laptops at the local computer shop for a reasonable amount of cash.
ahoyhere 14y ago
There's also a bias if you look at dropouts as a homogeneous group, because they aren't. It's just as ludicrous to predict the same outcome for someone like me, who was always way ahead and bored to death of school, and a poor kid from the city or country who couldn't read at grade level. I doubt Tobi ever had reading comprehension problems and I bet he was passionate about his hobby leading up to his track switch. As for me, I'm a high school drop out and everybody told me "You'll end up stacking shelves at 7-11!" because that's what dropouts do. They made the same mistake you are accusing us of making, when we talk about our own pasts. I knew several outstanding HS and college dropouts among my online friends at the time and they inspired me to stop wasting my life. I'm so glad they did.
- kostya-kow 14y ago
  I completely agree with you. You expressed exactly what I was thinking. I am 15, and I am planning to drop out of school. It is extremely frustrating trying to persuade my parents that dropping out of school doesn't mean I am giving up on life, and that I am not a failure. I cannot function in this artificial society that exists in schools, and I learn much better by myself. Finishing school would be complete waste of my time, for a stupid piece of paper. During this day and age, it is extremely easy to attain knowledge for free without attending any institutions. Currently, I have several dozen textbooks on my kindle, and I am taking 3 classes at Coursera. My parents are trying to compare me to all the stupid kids that usually drop out, and I cannot comprehend their close-mindedness and ignorance. Because of their stupidity and effort to "help" me, I may even end up homeless by the end of this year.
  - vermasque 14y ago
    Perhaps you need to work on persuading your parents about your intentions by describing a complete plan. Do you have a plan to get a job from the self-study through books and Coursera? Have you considered dropping out of school and getting a GED so that you still will have a piece of paper while spending more time on your personal projects? I have heard of this approach from an entrepreneur who was building a business around your age. Are you planning on applying to college after dropping out of high school? AP courses in middle/high school can be used to get college credits, saving a lot of money and time. The "stupid piece of paper" is used by employers as another way to confirm that a person has skills they need. It's about reducing risk. Some companies might not be willing to hire someone who doesn't a piece of a paper from a respectable university. And you might want to work for these companies. There are always exceptions, but you will have to be exceptional in their eyes. I'm not saying you shouldn't drop out. I definitely have issues with the schools and understand that time can be wasted for some students. Have a plan for how you will achieve success and understand that all decisions have trade-offs: benefits and costs. And consider how your plan might fail and how you will handle it.
herdrick 14y ago
A key point of the post is that in Germany it wasn't dropping out. It was joining a school of a different sort, a much better one for certain kinds of learners.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
icelancer 14y ago
>I feel like confirmation bias is in play when you read about successful people who have dropped out of school, succeed, and then blogged about it. And what of the people who graduate, get a job, and blog about it?

jdotjdot 14y ago

Yes, but you could say the same thing about people who went to traditional schools. How many people went through that system and succeeded--and then how many people went through that system and didn't? I agree with you in that I don't know we have the data to argue that apprenticeships are better, but I don't think we have data to argue that they're worse either, and I can't see how having it as an option is bad at all.

jmduke 14y ago
> Yes, but you could say the same thing about people who went to traditional schools. How many people went through that system and succeeded--and then how many people went through that system and didn't? I think the whole point is that, statistically speaking, many many more people go through the system and succeed than otherwise. That's why it's the system. (I'm not saying that's still true.)
- drcube 14y ago
  Yeah, but correlation isn't causation. Maybe unsuccessful people on average will be unsuccessful in school and the successful people on average will be successful in school. While school itself has no actual impact on success. I'm not saying I believe that, but I haven't seen it ruled out yet.
- ams6110 14y ago
  More people start an undergraduate education than finish it. If you're only looking at people who got through the system, you've already filtered out a number of those who have low motivation or low ability.
  - jdotjdot 14y ago
    More people start _anything_ than finish it. Since starting is a prerequisite for finishing, it is always the case that a maximum of 100% will finish, and likely fewer. If your point is that more people start school than finish and somehow that weeds people out, you could also say the same thing about apprenticeships.

xal 14y ago

Obviously - the system clearly doesn't just produce huge successes. I simply wanted to tell my story because it's sufficiently different from most people's background to be interesting, or so I was told.

rossjudson 14y ago
You've been told right. It was news to me that Germany had such a well-organized system of apprenticeships. It explains a lot.

ihsw 14y ago

There is a very long sliding scale of success attributed formalized education (either through academic or vocational studies) or otherwise garnered from personal experience. There is value in both, and the confirmation bias is apparent but it may not have been the intention of the author.

jacquesm 14y ago

> Self education may appeal to many of us here, but it applies to less than it appeals to. I think a key ingredient is that you have to love to learn, that you would do it regardless of circumstance and that learning itself is your passion. If that's the case you can safely drop out of education, but if the motivations are to some extent external then better stay put.

doktrin 14y ago

> Self education may appeal to many of us here, but it applies to less than it appeals to. That's missing the major point of the piece, IMHO. The OP isn't describing "self education", and (coming from a US perspective) is not even a typical drop out. What's being described here is a vocational pattern of learning, where on-the-job experience is backed up with classroom instruction. That's not exactly what "drop out" or "self educated" imply in the US.

keithpeter 14y ago
Yup. In the UK we are trying to reconstruct the 'dual system' and we have things that are called apprenticeships but not quite as well organised as the ones they have in Germany. The OP is not a drop-out. He has followed an established path!
- walshemj 14y ago
  Ah you mean the Torry plan to bring back the 11 plus and ship off poor kids to dumbed down Modern Apprenticeships so they can stack shelves at safeway.
  - meaty 14y ago
    You hit the nail on the head. Except they also have the "back to work scheme" which means they don't even have to pay them to stack shelves in safeway (or Morrisons as it now is).
    - keithpeter 14y ago
      Yes, that 'scheme' has lost me a really good student who was attending a college course off his own bat. He has been required to waste his time totally in a mickey mouse scheme that won't get him anywhere. We will try to catch him up when he is let out.
      - meaty 14y ago
        That sucks. My nephew managed to get out of it by calling his manager at Tesco "fucking spineless arse licking cunt". Worked wonders. He now fixes laptops at the local computer shop for a reasonable amount of cash.

ahoyhere 14y ago

There's also a bias if you look at dropouts as a homogeneous group, because they aren't. It's just as ludicrous to predict the same outcome for someone like me, who was always way ahead and bored to death of school, and a poor kid from the city or country who couldn't read at grade level. I doubt Tobi ever had reading comprehension problems and I bet he was passionate about his hobby leading up to his track switch. As for me, I'm a high school drop out and everybody told me "You'll end up stacking shelves at 7-11!" because that's what dropouts do. They made the same mistake you are accusing us of making, when we talk about our own pasts. I knew several outstanding HS and college dropouts among my online friends at the time and they inspired me to stop wasting my life. I'm so glad they did.

kostya-kow 14y ago
I completely agree with you. You expressed exactly what I was thinking. I am 15, and I am planning to drop out of school. It is extremely frustrating trying to persuade my parents that dropping out of school doesn't mean I am giving up on life, and that I am not a failure. I cannot function in this artificial society that exists in schools, and I learn much better by myself. Finishing school would be complete waste of my time, for a stupid piece of paper. During this day and age, it is extremely easy to attain knowledge for free without attending any institutions. Currently, I have several dozen textbooks on my kindle, and I am taking 3 classes at Coursera. My parents are trying to compare me to all the stupid kids that usually drop out, and I cannot comprehend their close-mindedness and ignorance. Because of their stupidity and effort to "help" me, I may even end up homeless by the end of this year.
- vermasque 14y ago
  Perhaps you need to work on persuading your parents about your intentions by describing a complete plan. Do you have a plan to get a job from the self-study through books and Coursera? Have you considered dropping out of school and getting a GED so that you still will have a piece of paper while spending more time on your personal projects? I have heard of this approach from an entrepreneur who was building a business around your age. Are you planning on applying to college after dropping out of high school? AP courses in middle/high school can be used to get college credits, saving a lot of money and time. The "stupid piece of paper" is used by employers as another way to confirm that a person has skills they need. It's about reducing risk. Some companies might not be willing to hire someone who doesn't a piece of a paper from a respectable university. And you might want to work for these companies. There are always exceptions, but you will have to be exceptional in their eyes. I'm not saying you shouldn't drop out. I definitely have issues with the schools and understand that time can be wasted for some students. Have a plan for how you will achieve success and understand that all decisions have trade-offs: benefits and costs. And consider how your plan might fail and how you will handle it.

herdrick 14y ago

A key point of the post is that in Germany it wasn't dropping out. It was joining a school of a different sort, a much better one for certain kinds of learners.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

icelancer 14y ago

>I feel like confirmation bias is in play when you read about successful people who have dropped out of school, succeed, and then blogged about it. And what of the people who graduate, get a job, and blog about it?