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I don't think we should encourage anyone to do anything. We should discourage them. Let me explain... I take my example from this traditional practice of Rabb

by edw519 14y ago

I don't think we should encourage anyone to do anything. We should discourage them. Let me explain... I take my example from this traditional practice of Rabbis: never accept a convert until they have been turned away twice before. Make them make 3 attempts to show their determination. Why? Because Judaism is hard. If they're not committed, they'll either give up or do just enough to satisify the minimum requirements, wasting everyone's time. Same thing with programming. Building real applications that deliver sustainable value over time is hard. It pretty much takes all that you've got and can take years to reach excellence. Every time I see another way to learn how to be a programmer (now that there's money in the game, they seem to be popping up everywhere), I have two immediate reactions: 1. How cool is that. I wish I had that years ago. 2. No! We had enough bad programmers who are doing it for all the wrong reasons. I believe the most important difference between an excellent programmer and everyone else is not intelligence, education, emotional state, or work ethic (although all of these help). The most important thing is a burning desire to build. Someone with this burning desire won't not need to be encouraged. You won't be able to stop them. Someone without it would be better off doing something else. We don't need more programmers. (Only IT execs who akin programmers to envelope stuffers think that.) We need more excellent programmers. The best way to get more excellent programmers? Discourage everyone so that only the most determined can make it. Our industry, our craft, and most of all, are code repositories would be much better off.

prtamil 14y ago
its true. thanks man.
aroberge 14y ago
And that's how you keep women away from computing. Yes, let's continue the practice that have lead our industry to lack diversity.
- walkon 14y ago
  Are you implying that the drive and burning desire described by edw is something women are incapable of feeling towards programming? Or that they need extra hand holding and encouragement to be able to succeed in this field?
  - aroberge 14y ago
    No, not at all. I'm saying that the elistist attitude described by edw is what got the field in the situation that it is in. Dismissing these new initiatives is, in effect, saying that the status quo is acceptable.
jasonlotito 14y ago
Except you don't have to become a chef to learn to cook.
- ronyeh 14y ago
  I agree with this sentiment. Learning how to cook teaches you how to appreciate food, and helps you think differently about how food is prepared and even consumed. Learning how to code, even if you don't become a professional programmer, will help you appreciate the software you use. It may also help you think differently about life, become better at problem solving (debugging IRL!), or at minimum, get frustrated at all the software you use on a day-to-day basis, because you know you would have designed it better. ;-)
marknutter 14y ago
We're talking about kids here, and I feel like you've turned this discussion into a personal rant against people who want to cash in on the popularity of programming without really putting in the effort. Discouraging kids is a terrible, terrible idea. If my daughter shows even the smallest interest in programming, I will encourage the heck out of that interest. Same goes for anything worthwhile she shows an interest in.
jonathanjaeger 14y ago
Reminds of what Seinfeld would tell kids who told him they wanted to be comedians. He would say 'No you don't, you'll never make it.' If they could take the criticism and go at it regardless, then maybe they could do what it takes to make it (the hard grueling path of being a standup comedian). Analogous to the startup world.
contingencies 14y ago
Am I the only one who reads this as selfish, juvenile elitism? Here's how I see it: Programming is a relatively young discipline. It's not really that hard, we just make it artificially difficult with bad tools, and artificially exclusive with various first world and Anglo-centric measures. We desperately need fresh perspectives. Most of what is built is rebuilt, constantly, with new bugs. As a profession, we tend to lack insight. We need more eyes, particularly fresh eyes, not 'experienced', elitist code-Rabbis.
bad_user 14y ago
The other side of the coin is that children who aren't exposed to programming will never know how it feels to build software. And it goes further. People without an education or experience in software development or engineering aren't able to come up with good ideas about what to build because they aren't able to grasp the possibilities of what technology enables. That feeling you're talking about in regards to building stuff is not something that you're born with, but rather something that grows on you by building stuff. So no, I don't agree with you. We shouldn't force anybody to do anything of course, but the responsibility of a good educational system is to open up horizons, which means encouraging children to explore as much as possible.
YuriNiyazov 14y ago
Ugh. You couldn't be more wrong. We expect everyone to have a basic education about "how the world works". For example, there are increased calls to have the basics of personal finance be something that is taught in schools because the world is getting more complicated with respect to personal finance, and this is uncontroversial - knowing basic personal finance is a good thing. To use a well-known quote, "software is eating the world." Why is knowing how to code somehow different?
saturdayplace 14y ago
Graphic design went through this a while back: "Woe! Our industry is flooded with people who've no aptitude." Desktop publishing resulted in a metric crapton of nasty designs for a while. But subsequently we've seen a Cambrian explosion of great looking stuff. The same thing is happening with video production right now. YouTube is overfilled with stuff no one wants to watch but already we're seeing innovative stuff come out as people with access to previously unavailable tools learn how to use them effectively. For a while this probably means that our code repos might be filled with nasty stuff, but I'm convinced we'll be better off for it in the long run.
SatvikBeri 14y ago
You're underestimating the value of basic coding skills to non-programmers. It's a little like saying programmers should never learn how to improve their social skills, because they'll never be have the determination to reach Bill Clinton's level of charisma. I am decidedly not a programmer. I don't know what an object is. I haven't learned the first bit of CS. My code would probably make you want to gouge your eyes out. And yet, it's saved/earned companies millions of dollars.
flaviusb 14y ago
Or, we could do things that encourage this burning desire, perhaps? It certainly seems possible to teach in a way that kindles a life long love of programming, rather than leaving things to blind caprice - most groups just don't even seem to realise this might be a good idea.

by edw519 14y ago

prtamil 14y ago

its true. thanks man.

aroberge 14y ago

And that's how you keep women away from computing. Yes, let's continue the practice that have lead our industry to lack diversity.

walkon 14y ago
Are you implying that the drive and burning desire described by edw is something women are incapable of feeling towards programming? Or that they need extra hand holding and encouragement to be able to succeed in this field?
- aroberge 14y ago
  No, not at all. I'm saying that the elistist attitude described by edw is what got the field in the situation that it is in. Dismissing these new initiatives is, in effect, saying that the status quo is acceptable.

jasonlotito 14y ago

Except you don't have to become a chef to learn to cook.

ronyeh 14y ago
I agree with this sentiment. Learning how to cook teaches you how to appreciate food, and helps you think differently about how food is prepared and even consumed. Learning how to code, even if you don't become a professional programmer, will help you appreciate the software you use. It may also help you think differently about life, become better at problem solving (debugging IRL!), or at minimum, get frustrated at all the software you use on a day-to-day basis, because you know you would have designed it better. ;-)

marknutter 14y ago

We're talking about kids here, and I feel like you've turned this discussion into a personal rant against people who want to cash in on the popularity of programming without really putting in the effort. Discouraging kids is a terrible, terrible idea. If my daughter shows even the smallest interest in programming, I will encourage the heck out of that interest. Same goes for anything worthwhile she shows an interest in.

jonathanjaeger 14y ago

Reminds of what Seinfeld would tell kids who told him they wanted to be comedians. He would say 'No you don't, you'll never make it.' If they could take the criticism and go at it regardless, then maybe they could do what it takes to make it (the hard grueling path of being a standup comedian). Analogous to the startup world.

contingencies 14y ago

Am I the only one who reads this as selfish, juvenile elitism? Here's how I see it: Programming is a relatively young discipline. It's not really that hard, we just make it artificially difficult with bad tools, and artificially exclusive with various first world and Anglo-centric measures. We desperately need fresh perspectives. Most of what is built is rebuilt, constantly, with new bugs. As a profession, we tend to lack insight. We need more eyes, particularly fresh eyes, not 'experienced', elitist code-Rabbis.

bad_user 14y ago

The other side of the coin is that children who aren't exposed to programming will never know how it feels to build software. And it goes further. People without an education or experience in software development or engineering aren't able to come up with good ideas about what to build because they aren't able to grasp the possibilities of what technology enables. That feeling you're talking about in regards to building stuff is not something that you're born with, but rather something that grows on you by building stuff. So no, I don't agree with you. We shouldn't force anybody to do anything of course, but the responsibility of a good educational system is to open up horizons, which means encouraging children to explore as much as possible.

YuriNiyazov 14y ago

Ugh. You couldn't be more wrong. We expect everyone to have a basic education about "how the world works". For example, there are increased calls to have the basics of personal finance be something that is taught in schools because the world is getting more complicated with respect to personal finance, and this is uncontroversial - knowing basic personal finance is a good thing. To use a well-known quote, "software is eating the world." Why is knowing how to code somehow different?

saturdayplace 14y ago

Graphic design went through this a while back: "Woe! Our industry is flooded with people who've no aptitude." Desktop publishing resulted in a metric crapton of nasty designs for a while. But subsequently we've seen a Cambrian explosion of great looking stuff. The same thing is happening with video production right now. YouTube is overfilled with stuff no one wants to watch but already we're seeing innovative stuff come out as people with access to previously unavailable tools learn how to use them effectively. For a while this probably means that our code repos might be filled with nasty stuff, but I'm convinced we'll be better off for it in the long run.

SatvikBeri 14y ago

You're underestimating the value of basic coding skills to non-programmers. It's a little like saying programmers should never learn how to improve their social skills, because they'll never be have the determination to reach Bill Clinton's level of charisma. I am decidedly not a programmer. I don't know what an object is. I haven't learned the first bit of CS. My code would probably make you want to gouge your eyes out. And yet, it's saved/earned companies millions of dollars.

flaviusb 14y ago

Or, we could do things that encourage this burning desire, perhaps? It certainly seems possible to teach in a way that kindles a life long love of programming, rather than leaving things to blind caprice - most groups just don't even seem to realise this might be a good idea.