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> I don't believe computer programing is a good way to teach logical thinking. Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives That makes no sense

by rorrr 14y ago

> I don't believe computer programing is a good way to teach logical thinking. Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives That makes no sense. I've taken literature, I've read hundreds of books on my own. Most of them are full of illogical things. At best they are OK to teach morals, not logic. Philosophy is closer. Computer programming is pretty much pure logic and problem solving. The only better way to teach logic is to teach logic. > teaching agriculture or other physical goods producing craftsmanship to kids would make them better at real world challenges Computers and code are real world, and they solve real world challenges.

adestefan 14y ago
I'm not sure why people think programming us the pinnacle of problem solving. Just about any trade involves just as much logical thinking and problem solving.
- rorrr 14y ago
  Really? Any trade? Car salesmen are sitting and solving logical problems? Programming is very close to logic. Of course, there are other fields that require logic and problem solving. Engineering, science, for instance.
  - adestefan 14y ago
    I'm talking about what are commonly called the skilled trades [0]. Some of the most analytical thinkers I know were trained in a trade. Masons and cabinet makers that have an intuitive understanding of geometry and trigonometry that most people just don't grasp. I learned most of my problem solving skills from my father who was trained as an industrial electrician. Spend a day on a job site and you'll hear the same things you hear programmers bitching about. Most people complain about the engineers and architects not understanding how the real world works just like programmers always bitch about software architects. It's a real shame that most people seem to look down on the trades as somehow being inferior to white collar work. This is what Mike Rowe has been preaching about for the past 4 or 5 years. Just listen to his TED talk [1]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradesmen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradesmen [1] http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.html http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.htm...
  - philhippus 14y ago
    >Car salesmen are sitting and solving logical problems? If they aren't then they will be unsuccessful as car salesmen. Apart from "how can I sell more cars?" there is "what is the optimal number of cars I can fit in my showroom?", "how shall I present my most profitable deal to its most likely demographic?", "which aspects of my communication skills can be improved?"...the list is endless. Point being there are logical challenges to be solved everywhere.
StavrosK 14y ago
If you want to teach logical thinking, you need to teach biases, rationality, probability, etc. Programming is teaching "if this, then that".
- gambiting 14y ago
  What you just said is simply not true. Programming does teach you all 3 things that you mentioned.
  - StavrosK 14y ago
    How on earth does programming teach you biases?
    - gambiting 14y ago
      Heuristic algorithms are pretty much exclusively about biases.
      - StavrosK 14y ago
        In which heuristic algorithm did you learn about the fundamental attribution error, hindsight bias, or confirmation bias? Programming doesn't teach you cognitive biases. You don't become more aware of yourself by programming. You learn more about human logic by reading "Thinking, fast and slow" than by programming for your entire life.
jmduke 14y ago
> That makes no sense. I've taken literature, I've read hundreds of books on my own. Most of them are full of illogical things. At best they are OK to teach morals, not logic. Not trying to be snarky, but what level literature classes did you take? I was an English major for a few semesters and I found that there were a league of differences between an introductory course which was little better than reading something on my own (plus a professor's gospel, which we were asked to support or comment but never refute) -- and an upper-level course, which was more centered around research: diving inside of a text and an author, plumbing for patterns and arguments much like one would dive into JavaDocs.
- xymostech 14y ago
  Yes, but we're not talking about encouraging people to become an English major, we're talking about introducing people to these subjects. Do you think people would learn more logical thought doing a year of coding or a year of reading?
fsniper 14y ago
Teaching kids to make them better understand what's going around them? "Say Kitty move right, Kitty move left and do this about 5 times." is not about logic. This logic, that you can teach with programming is only mathematical logic. "If a > b and a is negative then b should be negative". Real world logic does not work like that. There is not only 1's and 0's, blacks or whites. There are also shades of gray and reds, purples, blues. Some fractions, doubles. Everyday you make many decisions. Some are easy yay/nay decisions, some are hard decisions like "what to wear today" or "Voting that candidate or this?" or "Should I ask her out, but what if it's too soon?". Many things affect them; Human interactions, weather conditions, light conditions, feelings... So many unknowns. Maybe just some luck? Murhpy laws? We can not or have not yet deducted them into pure mathematical logic. So giving kids programming as logical thinking aid would help, but maybe in a wrong way. It would teach them an illusionary version of logical thinking where everything is 1 or 0.

by rorrr 14y ago

adestefan 14y ago

I'm not sure why people think programming us the pinnacle of problem solving. Just about any trade involves just as much logical thinking and problem solving.

rorrr 14y ago
Really? Any trade? Car salesmen are sitting and solving logical problems? Programming is very close to logic. Of course, there are other fields that require logic and problem solving. Engineering, science, for instance.
- adestefan 14y ago
  I'm talking about what are commonly called the skilled trades [0]. Some of the most analytical thinkers I know were trained in a trade. Masons and cabinet makers that have an intuitive understanding of geometry and trigonometry that most people just don't grasp. I learned most of my problem solving skills from my father who was trained as an industrial electrician. Spend a day on a job site and you'll hear the same things you hear programmers bitching about. Most people complain about the engineers and architects not understanding how the real world works just like programmers always bitch about software architects. It's a real shame that most people seem to look down on the trades as somehow being inferior to white collar work. This is what Mike Rowe has been preaching about for the past 4 or 5 years. Just listen to his TED talk [1]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradesmen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradesmen [1] http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.html http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.htm...
- philhippus 14y ago
  >Car salesmen are sitting and solving logical problems? If they aren't then they will be unsuccessful as car salesmen. Apart from "how can I sell more cars?" there is "what is the optimal number of cars I can fit in my showroom?", "how shall I present my most profitable deal to its most likely demographic?", "which aspects of my communication skills can be improved?"...the list is endless. Point being there are logical challenges to be solved everywhere.

StavrosK 14y ago

If you want to teach logical thinking, you need to teach biases, rationality, probability, etc. Programming is teaching "if this, then that".

gambiting 14y ago
What you just said is simply not true. Programming does teach you all 3 things that you mentioned.
- StavrosK 14y ago
  How on earth does programming teach you biases?
  - gambiting 14y ago
    Heuristic algorithms are pretty much exclusively about biases.
    - StavrosK 14y ago
      In which heuristic algorithm did you learn about the fundamental attribution error, hindsight bias, or confirmation bias? Programming doesn't teach you cognitive biases. You don't become more aware of yourself by programming. You learn more about human logic by reading "Thinking, fast and slow" than by programming for your entire life.

jmduke 14y ago

> That makes no sense. I've taken literature, I've read hundreds of books on my own. Most of them are full of illogical things. At best they are OK to teach morals, not logic. Not trying to be snarky, but what level literature classes did you take? I was an English major for a few semesters and I found that there were a league of differences between an introductory course which was little better than reading something on my own (plus a professor's gospel, which we were asked to support or comment but never refute) -- and an upper-level course, which was more centered around research: diving inside of a text and an author, plumbing for patterns and arguments much like one would dive into JavaDocs.

xymostech 14y ago
Yes, but we're not talking about encouraging people to become an English major, we're talking about introducing people to these subjects. Do you think people would learn more logical thought doing a year of coding or a year of reading?

fsniper 14y ago

Teaching kids to make them better understand what's going around them? "Say Kitty move right, Kitty move left and do this about 5 times." is not about logic. This logic, that you can teach with programming is only mathematical logic. "If a > b and a is negative then b should be negative". Real world logic does not work like that. There is not only 1's and 0's, blacks or whites. There are also shades of gray and reds, purples, blues. Some fractions, doubles. Everyday you make many decisions. Some are easy yay/nay decisions, some are hard decisions like "what to wear today" or "Voting that candidate or this?" or "Should I ask her out, but what if it's too soon?". Many things affect them; Human interactions, weather conditions, light conditions, feelings... So many unknowns. Maybe just some luck? Murhpy laws? We can not or have not yet deducted them into pure mathematical logic. So giving kids programming as logical thinking aid would help, but maybe in a wrong way. It would teach them an illusionary version of logical thinking where everything is 1 or 0.