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You need to remember that 6.001 is an /introductory/ programming course. Presumably most of the people taking it at MIT have done some codework before : ] but a

by maggie 18y ago

You need to remember that 6.001 is an /introductory/ programming course. Presumably most of the people taking it at MIT have done some codework before : ] but an intro. course is an intro. course. The question of what language to use is a pedagogical one, not a question of thoroughness.

abstractbill 18y ago
But the above examples are taken straight from SICP. Wasn't that the textbook for 6.001 before they switched to Python?
- jerf 18y ago
  Which sort of wanders back around to begging the question; is that still the best way to start teaching, as Sussman talks about? I ask myself, "how would I teach my son to program?", and for all my copious academic and practical experience, "start with re-implementing car and cdr from lambda functions" isn't even remotely in the running. Sure, I'd introduce such things earlier than most people and SICP is still firmly in the running, but for that to be an introduction in the general case? Not so sure. There's definitely an argument to be made that robotics is in many ways a much more realistic starting point. While some people may find the idea that we should actually start out by making a case to the students that their major is cool and important and gives them the ability to affect things in the real world vaguely repulsive, I'd say that it's an idea at least worth considering. The student that can leap from lambda, car, and cdr, to realizing that right in the introductory course is so exceptional that you're not going to hold them back anyhow.
  - abstractbill 18y ago
    Yeah, I think I actually agree with the overall point. I got my first experience of programming using BASIC to get various Sinclair computers to paint stuff on the screen and make funny beeping noises. I'm all for instant gratification. On the other hand that was when I was 9. By 12 I was learning Lisp, and by college age I'd written my own little Lisp compiler. I've always had this image of MIT students that doesn't quite mesh with them needing a gentle introduction to programming, but maybe that's not really the case?
    - jjames 18y ago
      "I've always had this image of MIT students that doesn't quite mesh with them needing a gentle introduction to programming, but maybe that's not really the case?" 6.001 from my experience does not in any way imply a student's focus on computer programming or software development. I've heard horror stories about people in completely unrelated majors ending up in that class and having their brains thoroughly melted. In my personal opinion, Python will be considerably more humane in that department.
    - bk 18y ago
      > I've always had this image of MIT students that doesn't quite mesh with them needing a gentle introduction to programming, but maybe that's not really the case? If it leads to more (non-CS) students taking a programming class, I'd call it a big win. Other fields can benefit greatly from programming skills. I'd almost go as far as calling it a new form of literacy.
      - irrelative 18y ago
        Absolutely I'd call it a new form of literacy. The most impressive applications of computer science always happen outside the realm of computer science disciplines.
    - wheels 18y ago
      There are probably a lot of physics, math and engineering students taking intro to programming that haven't written a line of code before. I'd assume most, if not all, computer science students have, but there's still a difference from learning to bang out some code in high school that does neat things, vs. starting back at the beginning and approaching it as, well, computer science. The way my university covered it was doing Pascal for the intro courses (this was the mid-90s) and then in third-semester "Programming Languages" we worked mostly in Scheme implementing language fundamentals. That seemed to be a reasonable balance.
  - Kaizyn 18y ago
    6.001 presumed the students had prior exposure to college physics and calculus mathematics. If your son has this level of foundational knowledge, then SICP probably would be the most efficient way to bring someone up to speed on programming. If they have not attained that level of education, then this isn't the best intro point to computer science. Predicate logic and set theory is probably a better starting point. Or if you're feeling particularly cruel, Java. :-)

by maggie 18y ago

abstractbill 18y ago

But the above examples are taken straight from SICP. Wasn't that the textbook for 6.001 before they switched to Python?

jerf 18y ago
Which sort of wanders back around to begging the question; is that still the best way to start teaching, as Sussman talks about? I ask myself, "how would I teach my son to program?", and for all my copious academic and practical experience, "start with re-implementing car and cdr from lambda functions" isn't even remotely in the running. Sure, I'd introduce such things earlier than most people and SICP is still firmly in the running, but for that to be an introduction in the general case? Not so sure. There's definitely an argument to be made that robotics is in many ways a much more realistic starting point. While some people may find the idea that we should actually start out by making a case to the students that their major is cool and important and gives them the ability to affect things in the real world vaguely repulsive, I'd say that it's an idea at least worth considering. The student that can leap from lambda, car, and cdr, to realizing that right in the introductory course is so exceptional that you're not going to hold them back anyhow.
- abstractbill 18y ago
  Yeah, I think I actually agree with the overall point. I got my first experience of programming using BASIC to get various Sinclair computers to paint stuff on the screen and make funny beeping noises. I'm all for instant gratification. On the other hand that was when I was 9. By 12 I was learning Lisp, and by college age I'd written my own little Lisp compiler. I've always had this image of MIT students that doesn't quite mesh with them needing a gentle introduction to programming, but maybe that's not really the case?
  - jjames 18y ago
    "I've always had this image of MIT students that doesn't quite mesh with them needing a gentle introduction to programming, but maybe that's not really the case?" 6.001 from my experience does not in any way imply a student's focus on computer programming or software development. I've heard horror stories about people in completely unrelated majors ending up in that class and having their brains thoroughly melted. In my personal opinion, Python will be considerably more humane in that department.
  - bk 18y ago
    > I've always had this image of MIT students that doesn't quite mesh with them needing a gentle introduction to programming, but maybe that's not really the case? If it leads to more (non-CS) students taking a programming class, I'd call it a big win. Other fields can benefit greatly from programming skills. I'd almost go as far as calling it a new form of literacy.
    - irrelative 18y ago
      Absolutely I'd call it a new form of literacy. The most impressive applications of computer science always happen outside the realm of computer science disciplines.
  - wheels 18y ago
    There are probably a lot of physics, math and engineering students taking intro to programming that haven't written a line of code before. I'd assume most, if not all, computer science students have, but there's still a difference from learning to bang out some code in high school that does neat things, vs. starting back at the beginning and approaching it as, well, computer science. The way my university covered it was doing Pascal for the intro courses (this was the mid-90s) and then in third-semester "Programming Languages" we worked mostly in Scheme implementing language fundamentals. That seemed to be a reasonable balance.
- Kaizyn 18y ago
  6.001 presumed the students had prior exposure to college physics and calculus mathematics. If your son has this level of foundational knowledge, then SICP probably would be the most efficient way to bring someone up to speed on programming. If they have not attained that level of education, then this isn't the best intro point to computer science. Predicate logic and set theory is probably a better starting point. Or if you're feeling particularly cruel, Java. :-)