5 ms·

My graduate STEM classes did not have many US citizens. I bet it's the same in most universities. I don't think that H1B workers like myself are brighter or sma

My graduate STEM classes did not have many US citizens. I bet it's the same in most universities. I don't think that H1B workers like myself are brighter or smarter than someone local, but the argument that technology companies are losing jobs to Wall Street as a validation criteria for his hypothesis is absurd. Just because Gates says that we need to keep the "best and the brightest" doesn't mean that we're all Nobel laureates in STEM. We have certain technical skills which cannot be fulfilled by Americans (due to lack of American STEM students in universities). That's all.

eshvk 14y ago
This is true for my graduate school experience. On the other hand, I have a rather controversial viewpoint: People trained for four years in an excellent undergrad program are way better than people who came from an incompetent undergrad program and have 2 years of a good grad program. Furthermore, the demographics for undergraduate STEM programs has a huge majority of US Citizens. So I am not super sure there are technical skills that graduate students have that cannot be fulfilled by undergraduate students. I think what has happened is that industry (Computer Science/EE) has become obsessed with people with graduate degrees. I work as a data scientist and most of what is done in this field could be done by a competent undergraduate student with some math, computer science.
- ashwinaj 14y ago
  But compare the number of undergraduate American students in STEM vs number of students in BBA/pre-med/law/dance/arts/humanities? There in lies the problem.
  - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
    The number of Americans in Comp Sci versus English doesn't matter. What matters is supply of Americans with BSc Comp Sci versus demand for Americans with BSc Comp Sci.
    - ashwinaj 14y ago
      There is always a demand for software engineers/designers/programmers. According to recent reports there are 3 million open tech jobs in the US. Assuming a pessimistic 50% variation in that number, you still have 1.5 million jobs. The popular dislike for "geek/nerd" STEM subjects in American schools doesn't help. That's unfortunately a societal problem that needs to be overcomed ("I don't know math", "that's for nerds" etc. fine flip my burger then).
      - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
        According to recent reports there are 3 million open tech jobs in the US. Really? Source? ("I don't know math", "that's for nerds" etc. fine flip my burger then). Not everyone can or should be a programmer.
        ashwinaj 14y ago
        Sure not everyone can or should become a programmer/software engineer. But you would expect a progressive forward thinking society like the United States, who has pioneered most of the technological advances in the 20th century to have a steady flow of STEM graduates, wouldn't you? I believe there was 60 minutes episode for this. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-25/companies-say-3-million-unfilled-positions-in-skill-crisis-jobs.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-25/companies-say-3-mil... This story includes all open jobs which require "high-tech skills", not necessarily being software engineers/programmers, and they don't have a breakdown by job function, unfortunately. Maybe I was misled by the over use of IT and high-tech that led me to believe they meant IT jobs only. This snippet is from Obama's Google+ Hangout: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps the most notable exchange during the Hangout was when participant Jennifer Wedel of Texas, whose husband has had trouble finding permanent employment for the past three years, interrupted the president. Obama had said he had a list of folks looking to hire engineers, her husband's specialty. "There's a huge demand for engineers around the country right now," he added, when Wedel jumped in. "Um, I understand that, but how — given the list that you're getting, I mean we're not getting that — You said in the State of the Union address that business leaders should ask themselves what can they do to bring jobs to America," she said. The president had a very personal response which Wedel seemed satisfied with. "If you send me your husband's resume, I'd be interested to find out what's happening," Obama said. "But the word we're getting is somebody in that high tech field should be able to find something right away." "I'll have to take you up on that," she replied. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Although he was getting calls from companies he couldn't move away from North Texas: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/04/09/144558/texas-engineer-who-sent-obama.html http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/04/09/144558/texas-engineer-... And in typical brain-dead, southern conservative fashion his wife blames H1B's for his inability to get a job (I lived in Texas for over seven years, I know these things first hand).
- eli_gottlieb 14y ago
  The interesting thing is the "conversion rate" of US Citizen undergrads to US Citizen grad-students. It's extraordinarily low. And here's the dirty secret: the best known explanation is that it's economically irrational for a US Citizen to get a graduate/PhD degree in a STEM subject. http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science Discussed on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4213217 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4213217 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=74590 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=74590
  - eshvk 14y ago
    Agreed. I talked to Philip a few years ago before I applied to grad. school. On the other hand, I had done an undergrad in EE from an average school in India, it made incredible economic sense for me to come to the U.S. to study C.S/Math. If I had studied those things in my undergrad, I wouldn't have gone to grad. school for sure.

eshvk 14y ago

This is true for my graduate school experience. On the other hand, I have a rather controversial viewpoint: People trained for four years in an excellent undergrad program are way better than people who came from an incompetent undergrad program and have 2 years of a good grad program. Furthermore, the demographics for undergraduate STEM programs has a huge majority of US Citizens. So I am not super sure there are technical skills that graduate students have that cannot be fulfilled by undergraduate students. I think what has happened is that industry (Computer Science/EE) has become obsessed with people with graduate degrees. I work as a data scientist and most of what is done in this field could be done by a competent undergraduate student with some math, computer science.

ashwinaj 14y ago
But compare the number of undergraduate American students in STEM vs number of students in BBA/pre-med/law/dance/arts/humanities? There in lies the problem.
- eli_gottlieb 14y ago
  The number of Americans in Comp Sci versus English doesn't matter. What matters is supply of Americans with BSc Comp Sci versus demand for Americans with BSc Comp Sci.
  - ashwinaj 14y ago
    There is always a demand for software engineers/designers/programmers. According to recent reports there are 3 million open tech jobs in the US. Assuming a pessimistic 50% variation in that number, you still have 1.5 million jobs. The popular dislike for "geek/nerd" STEM subjects in American schools doesn't help. That's unfortunately a societal problem that needs to be overcomed ("I don't know math", "that's for nerds" etc. fine flip my burger then).
    - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
      According to recent reports there are 3 million open tech jobs in the US. Really? Source? ("I don't know math", "that's for nerds" etc. fine flip my burger then). Not everyone can or should be a programmer.
      - ashwinaj 14y ago
        Sure not everyone can or should become a programmer/software engineer. But you would expect a progressive forward thinking society like the United States, who has pioneered most of the technological advances in the 20th century to have a steady flow of STEM graduates, wouldn't you? I believe there was 60 minutes episode for this. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-25/companies-say-3-million-unfilled-positions-in-skill-crisis-jobs.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-25/companies-say-3-mil... This story includes all open jobs which require "high-tech skills", not necessarily being software engineers/programmers, and they don't have a breakdown by job function, unfortunately. Maybe I was misled by the over use of IT and high-tech that led me to believe they meant IT jobs only. This snippet is from Obama's Google+ Hangout: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps the most notable exchange during the Hangout was when participant Jennifer Wedel of Texas, whose husband has had trouble finding permanent employment for the past three years, interrupted the president. Obama had said he had a list of folks looking to hire engineers, her husband's specialty. "There's a huge demand for engineers around the country right now," he added, when Wedel jumped in. "Um, I understand that, but how — given the list that you're getting, I mean we're not getting that — You said in the State of the Union address that business leaders should ask themselves what can they do to bring jobs to America," she said. The president had a very personal response which Wedel seemed satisfied with. "If you send me your husband's resume, I'd be interested to find out what's happening," Obama said. "But the word we're getting is somebody in that high tech field should be able to find something right away." "I'll have to take you up on that," she replied. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Although he was getting calls from companies he couldn't move away from North Texas: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/04/09/144558/texas-engineer-who-sent-obama.html http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/04/09/144558/texas-engineer-... And in typical brain-dead, southern conservative fashion his wife blames H1B's for his inability to get a job (I lived in Texas for over seven years, I know these things first hand).
eli_gottlieb 14y ago
The interesting thing is the "conversion rate" of US Citizen undergrads to US Citizen grad-students. It's extraordinarily low. And here's the dirty secret: the best known explanation is that it's economically irrational for a US Citizen to get a graduate/PhD degree in a STEM subject. http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science Discussed on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4213217 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4213217 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=74590 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=74590
- eshvk 14y ago
  Agreed. I talked to Philip a few years ago before I applied to grad. school. On the other hand, I had done an undergrad in EE from an average school in India, it made incredible economic sense for me to come to the U.S. to study C.S/Math. If I had studied those things in my undergrad, I wouldn't have gone to grad. school for sure.