14 ms·

Can we talk about racism? If you're brown or yellow or black... chances are you don't make the company club (as easily) as well, white people... I've seen it wi

by ahmad19526 14y ago

Can we talk about racism? If you're brown or yellow or black... chances are you don't make the company club (as easily) as well, white people... I've seen it with my own eyes... If you're not well networked in a corporation, but still work very well, you don't get a higher wage or as much opportunity to a promotion.. non-white ethnicity is a huge network barrier. It's not like people wanna golf with you and then go have a fancy chicken tiki massala or eat injera. Also, could foreign workers be much more ok with simple lives rather than being ambitious corporate thugs?.. but what's the measure of ambition for higher salary btwn immigrant and native wokers? If I came from a village I'd settle for any salary. Using salaries for understanding is absolutely pathetic..

eshvk 14y ago
> Can we talk about racism? If you're brown or yellow or black... chances are you don't make the company club (as easily) as well, white people... I've seen it with my own eyes... If we are going to be pulling anecdotes from where the sun don't shine, I can also point at Silicon Valley with a huge number of south asian/chinese immigrants starting companies. > If you're not well networked, but still working very well, you don't get a higher wage/promotions... Erm... so ? This is life. Popularity and hard work are not necessarily correlated, learn how to network. It is a life skill. This is like a guy saying that he is a good guy but doesn't get any with a girl.
- ahmad19526 14y ago
  Maybe they don't care to network.. maybe these foreign workers would rather work and do well in their field than suck * to get ahead? I'm not saying they can't network, anybody can indeed over come that... but some people, and maybe foreigner workers fall into this category, don't care about the popularity contest.. they're just trying to work Btw, did you know that women don't make as much as men? maybe female workers are... Salary #'s overlook a lot of cultural things that need to be studied...
  - mindcrime 14y ago
    This is an interesting line of discussion, but it's really orthogonal to one's race/gender/ethnicity/etc. Some people (like|accept|are willing to play) the "networking game" and some people aren't. In either case, it's a simple truth that a willingness and ability to play that game usually corresponds with more money, more responsibility, etc. I know it offends the sensibilities of many hackers that something so important should reduce to something so subjective and uncontrollable as human relations, but in the end, we are all salespeople... we're selling ourselves to others, all the time. And choosing not to engage in that is making a choice to do a poor job of selling yourself. It would be nice if the entire world could just perceive our knowledge, wisdom, skills and experience, and just come to us and evaluate us objectively, but it just doesn't work that way. It's not fair, but who ever said life was going to be fair. Whether you're Indian or Caucasian, male or female, Catholic or Atheist, or whatever, learning to network and sell yourself is something you need to do if you want to advance and be successful. Now if you're content with your current position, salary, lifestyle, etc., then don't worry about it.
    - eshvk 14y ago
      > This is an interesting line of discussion, but it's really orthogonal to one's race/gender/ethnicity/etc. Some people (like|accept|are willing to play) the "networking game" and some people aren't. In either case, it's a simple truth that a willingness and ability to play that game usually corresponds with more money, more responsibility, etc. Exactly. Most jobs in companies are not ridiculously hard to do, you don't necessarily need to amazingly brilliant to do that. Hell, I was challenged more in grad. school than I have been in any job after that. On the other hand, I get paid shit tons more. The "real world" has a lot of bullshit to deal with like meetings, chit chatting with your boss and getting ahead. I don't think it is good but on the other hand, you would be particularly foolish if you think that the world is a meritocratic system.
  - nthj 14y ago
    > Maybe they don't care to network.. maybe these foreign workers would rather work and do well in their field than suck * to get ahead? Yeah, I'd definitely rather work and do well in my field than play the popularity game. Oh, and I'm a young white reasonably-good-looking male. I've been delivering great software for years. But I didn't get anywhere career-wise until I got over myself, stopped wishing the world worked like a meritocracy, put myself out there, and made friends like crazy. I don't care about the popularity contest, but I play the game anyway, so I can get the work I want. Maybe this game would have been more difficult than it is if I had been a different ethnicity, or from overseas, or whatever. I don't know. I'm not saying it was easy. But just because somebody wants to do good work and magically achieve success for their work alone doesn't mean the world is going to bend the way they want, no matter what their skin color is.
- colmvp 14y ago
  How many Asian males are engineers in Silicon Valley compared to females? I bet a lot more. Yet I believe there are more c-level females in tech companies than Asian males.
jholman 14y ago
First, I agree with some of what you said about "simple lives", "measure of ambition", and especially "settle for any salary", and I totally agree that the way this "study" uses salaries for understanding is pathetic. Other commenters elsewhere made even more clear arguments about how H1B might make this effect even stronger. Second: other commenters have already pointed out that your comment about being "well-networked", while true, has nothing to do with racism. So don't confuse those things. Third: > *Can we talk about racism? Maybe you're content to just vent your frustration, and throw blame around. Or maybe you want to have a meaningful conversation. I don't know you, I don't know your goals. But if your goal is to have a meaningful conversation about racism, or educate the privileged white people about their privilege, you're doing it wrong. One of the facts of human nature is that people don't want to hear this shit. If you want to illuminate anyone, you have to make a very careful and thoughtful argument, because when you make sloppy mistakes, that gives people the excuse they need to let themselves off the hook. Just look at the replies you got: you said something that's true ("If you're brown or yellow or black... chances are you don't make the company club (as easily) as well, white people") and then you said a few things that were dumb ("I've seen it with my own eyes...", and the thing about confusing not-wanting-to-network with ethnicity), and look at which part got the replies. If you want to preach the uncomfortable truths, you've gotta be on your A game. And if you play a C game, you just distract the audience, which makes it harder for other people to explain the situation, which means that the racism will continue. As well as all the other forms of privilege, which I notice you didn't much care about (your "btw women" notwithstanding).
- ahmad19526 14y ago
  Hey thanks for this feedback! I really was on my C game, maybe even my F game. But to defend myself, I didn't have time at the moment I was writing this comment to go in depth or really focus on making a good argument. But thats not a good excuse. Also my goal wasn't to fully educate people, i just wanted to spark alternative explanations and hope people would figure out the fully story for themselves. But you're right, I was doing it wrong and it will let people attack me for the weak things.. My bad, will up my game next time.
JPKab 14y ago
Until a few months ago I was on the 6th floor of an office building. There was my office, which was a diverse company (minority woman owned, lots of black, white, hispanic, Asian, etc). Then next to us was a .NET shop. All they do is .NET software for the government. ALL Indian/Pakistani. They had one white guy working for them, and he and I talked on the elevator. He said that the only reason he was hired was because they couldn't find an Indian guy that knew his particular specialty. 2 weeks later I saw him on the street corner, and they had fired him and replaced him with an Indian guy. We shared a floor with this company for years, and they wouldn't even talk to any of the non Urdu/Hindi speaking people in my company. This is the part where you say that I don't have all the information, and maybe he was a terrible worker. That's also the part where I say that you likely don't have the full picture of the "company club" either. The cultural divide can be huge. My former coworker grew up in Punjab. He was very apprehensive when he tagged along with me on a roadtrip (he loved football) and my wife wanted to drive. He told me "the women in my family don't drive." This is the kind of stuff that makes it hard to get into the "company club."
- eshvk 14y ago
  Sadly enough, I have seen this sort of stuff happen. I have worked in teams which are overwhelmingly South Asian, there are definite situations where they find it hard to have casual conversations in English with American counterparts. They form self-selecting groups and there are conversations which are peppered with Indian languages. Now, this is in someways a reverse company club. I have no sympathy for people who then complain that they don't have enough visibility in the company and don't know how to get ahead in the game.
- ahmad19526 14y ago
  I am aware of what you have brought up. Racism is very evil indeed.. We should do all that we can to never be racist and work to stop racism... easier said than done
ashwinaj 14y ago
Sure there is. You need to find your niche and not cling around such work places OR try to be happy with what you have.

eshvk 14y ago

> Can we talk about racism? If you're brown or yellow or black... chances are you don't make the company club (as easily) as well, white people... I've seen it with my own eyes... If we are going to be pulling anecdotes from where the sun don't shine, I can also point at Silicon Valley with a huge number of south asian/chinese immigrants starting companies. > If you're not well networked, but still working very well, you don't get a higher wage/promotions... Erm... so ? This is life. Popularity and hard work are not necessarily correlated, learn how to network. It is a life skill. This is like a guy saying that he is a good guy but doesn't get any with a girl.

ahmad19526 14y ago
Maybe they don't care to network.. maybe these foreign workers would rather work and do well in their field than suck * to get ahead? I'm not saying they can't network, anybody can indeed over come that... but some people, and maybe foreigner workers fall into this category, don't care about the popularity contest.. they're just trying to work Btw, did you know that women don't make as much as men? maybe female workers are... Salary #'s overlook a lot of cultural things that need to be studied...
- mindcrime 14y ago
  This is an interesting line of discussion, but it's really orthogonal to one's race/gender/ethnicity/etc. Some people (like|accept|are willing to play) the "networking game" and some people aren't. In either case, it's a simple truth that a willingness and ability to play that game usually corresponds with more money, more responsibility, etc. I know it offends the sensibilities of many hackers that something so important should reduce to something so subjective and uncontrollable as human relations, but in the end, we are all salespeople... we're selling ourselves to others, all the time. And choosing not to engage in that is making a choice to do a poor job of selling yourself. It would be nice if the entire world could just perceive our knowledge, wisdom, skills and experience, and just come to us and evaluate us objectively, but it just doesn't work that way. It's not fair, but who ever said life was going to be fair. Whether you're Indian or Caucasian, male or female, Catholic or Atheist, or whatever, learning to network and sell yourself is something you need to do if you want to advance and be successful. Now if you're content with your current position, salary, lifestyle, etc., then don't worry about it.
  - eshvk 14y ago
    > This is an interesting line of discussion, but it's really orthogonal to one's race/gender/ethnicity/etc. Some people (like|accept|are willing to play) the "networking game" and some people aren't. In either case, it's a simple truth that a willingness and ability to play that game usually corresponds with more money, more responsibility, etc. Exactly. Most jobs in companies are not ridiculously hard to do, you don't necessarily need to amazingly brilliant to do that. Hell, I was challenged more in grad. school than I have been in any job after that. On the other hand, I get paid shit tons more. The "real world" has a lot of bullshit to deal with like meetings, chit chatting with your boss and getting ahead. I don't think it is good but on the other hand, you would be particularly foolish if you think that the world is a meritocratic system.
- nthj 14y ago
  > Maybe they don't care to network.. maybe these foreign workers would rather work and do well in their field than suck * to get ahead? Yeah, I'd definitely rather work and do well in my field than play the popularity game. Oh, and I'm a young white reasonably-good-looking male. I've been delivering great software for years. But I didn't get anywhere career-wise until I got over myself, stopped wishing the world worked like a meritocracy, put myself out there, and made friends like crazy. I don't care about the popularity contest, but I play the game anyway, so I can get the work I want. Maybe this game would have been more difficult than it is if I had been a different ethnicity, or from overseas, or whatever. I don't know. I'm not saying it was easy. But just because somebody wants to do good work and magically achieve success for their work alone doesn't mean the world is going to bend the way they want, no matter what their skin color is.
colmvp 14y ago
How many Asian males are engineers in Silicon Valley compared to females? I bet a lot more. Yet I believe there are more c-level females in tech companies than Asian males.

jholman 14y ago

First, I agree with some of what you said about "simple lives", "measure of ambition", and especially "settle for any salary", and I totally agree that the way this "study" uses salaries for understanding is pathetic. Other commenters elsewhere made even more clear arguments about how H1B might make this effect even stronger. Second: other commenters have already pointed out that your comment about being "well-networked", while true, has nothing to do with racism. So don't confuse those things. Third: > *Can we talk about racism? Maybe you're content to just vent your frustration, and throw blame around. Or maybe you want to have a meaningful conversation. I don't know you, I don't know your goals. But if your goal is to have a meaningful conversation about racism, or educate the privileged white people about their privilege, you're doing it wrong. One of the facts of human nature is that people don't want to hear this shit. If you want to illuminate anyone, you have to make a very careful and thoughtful argument, because when you make sloppy mistakes, that gives people the excuse they need to let themselves off the hook. Just look at the replies you got: you said something that's true ("If you're brown or yellow or black... chances are you don't make the company club (as easily) as well, white people") and then you said a few things that were dumb ("I've seen it with my own eyes...", and the thing about confusing not-wanting-to-network with ethnicity), and look at which part got the replies. If you want to preach the uncomfortable truths, you've gotta be on your A game. And if you play a C game, you just distract the audience, which makes it harder for other people to explain the situation, which means that the racism will continue. As well as all the other forms of privilege, which I notice you didn't much care about (your "btw women" notwithstanding).

ahmad19526 14y ago
Hey thanks for this feedback! I really was on my C game, maybe even my F game. But to defend myself, I didn't have time at the moment I was writing this comment to go in depth or really focus on making a good argument. But thats not a good excuse. Also my goal wasn't to fully educate people, i just wanted to spark alternative explanations and hope people would figure out the fully story for themselves. But you're right, I was doing it wrong and it will let people attack me for the weak things.. My bad, will up my game next time.

JPKab 14y ago

Until a few months ago I was on the 6th floor of an office building. There was my office, which was a diverse company (minority woman owned, lots of black, white, hispanic, Asian, etc). Then next to us was a .NET shop. All they do is .NET software for the government. ALL Indian/Pakistani. They had one white guy working for them, and he and I talked on the elevator. He said that the only reason he was hired was because they couldn't find an Indian guy that knew his particular specialty. 2 weeks later I saw him on the street corner, and they had fired him and replaced him with an Indian guy. We shared a floor with this company for years, and they wouldn't even talk to any of the non Urdu/Hindi speaking people in my company. This is the part where you say that I don't have all the information, and maybe he was a terrible worker. That's also the part where I say that you likely don't have the full picture of the "company club" either. The cultural divide can be huge. My former coworker grew up in Punjab. He was very apprehensive when he tagged along with me on a roadtrip (he loved football) and my wife wanted to drive. He told me "the women in my family don't drive." This is the kind of stuff that makes it hard to get into the "company club."

eshvk 14y ago
Sadly enough, I have seen this sort of stuff happen. I have worked in teams which are overwhelmingly South Asian, there are definite situations where they find it hard to have casual conversations in English with American counterparts. They form self-selecting groups and there are conversations which are peppered with Indian languages. Now, this is in someways a reverse company club. I have no sympathy for people who then complain that they don't have enough visibility in the company and don't know how to get ahead in the game.
ahmad19526 14y ago
I am aware of what you have brought up. Racism is very evil indeed.. We should do all that we can to never be racist and work to stop racism... easier said than done

ashwinaj 14y ago

Sure there is. You need to find your niche and not cling around such work places OR try to be happy with what you have.