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First, I don't know vi. Well, I am aware that something like this exists, because I see "{not in vi}" everywhere in VIM docs. So maybe you should familiarize yo

First, I don't know vi. Well, I am aware that something like this exists, because I see "{not in vi}" everywhere in VIM docs. So maybe you should familiarize yourself with VIM before talking about it - for example I noticed that you wrote that "[in modern editors] there is no need to wonder in what mode you are" as if it was a problem in VIM. It's true for vi, but VIM has a mode indicator on a status bar since times immemorial. Second, in VIM there are three modes, that's true, but not the ones you enumerate. There is: insert mode, normal mode and visual mode. All modern editors have at least the last one: the editor (all of them) behaves differently when you have some text selected. Third, in VIM you can freely delete and navigate (with arrows!) in insert mode. No problem at all. Even things like ctrl+left for to skip a word backwards work. Fourth, sheer amount of commands and functions makes the cheatsheets you mention valuable, they are not needed because the functions are so weird, they are needed because there is so many of them. I saw cheatsheets for Word and Photoshop too. You could argue that paint is better than photoshop because you don't need a cheatsheet to use it, but I doubt you'd want to do that. It's the same for editors: you don't need a cheatsheet for notepad... Fifth, VIM evolved to the point that it is effectively a platform for building text processing apps, similar to Emacs. There's VIMScript and Python, Ruby and Lua support. With this there is practically no limit to what you can make VIM do for you. To summarize: you seem to mistake VIM for vi; please take a closer look at modern VIM and then come back with a critique that makes sense in 2013.

lutusp 14y ago
> It's true for vi, but VIM has a mode indicator on a status bar since times immemorial. That's a nice improvement -- an indicator to tell you which of the three exclusive modes you're in at the moment. But imagine this -- imagine eliminating both the indicator, and the modes, all in one fell swoop, as modern editors have done. > ... please take a closer look at modern VIM and then come back with a critique that makes sense in 2013. When I wrote Apple Writer in 1978, I rendered vi/vim obsolete (and my program became a best-seller based on its ease of use). Among other things, Apple Writer didn't either have or require modes. Neither have any more recent editors, all of which had to compete with Apple Writer or its descendants.
- klibertp 14y ago
  "imagine eliminating both the indicator, and the modes" I was using modeless editors all my life; I was working with Zend Studio and Komodo IDE which are definitely modern editors. Yet I chose to have modes and switched to VIM. In other words I have no problem with imagining editors you talk about, I just don't like them. "When I wrote Apple Writer in 1978 ..." That's a funny thing, because VIM appeared in 1993 and only really became what it is now around 2006. Whatever you did deprecate, it was not VIM. With all due respect, you seem to know next to nothing about modern VIM. You didn't use it, right? I am using it every day and I can compare it with several other editors and I can assure you that VIM offers nearly everything other editors do inside the insert mode - you can work never leaving it, then it's like it was modeless - and that normal mode is an additional feature that accomplishes things not possible in other editors at all. Anyway, I'm alright with you convincing people not to use vi. It's archaic and cumbersome, has many missing features and so on. On the other hand, please stop bashing modes - it's ok that you don't like them, but that's your personal choice - and stop including VIM in your rants.
  - lutusp 14y ago
    > That's a funny thing, because VIM appeared in 1993 and only really became what it is now around 2006. Whatever you did deprecate, it was not VIM. I identified my subject very clearly. Are you really unaware that vim derives from vi, and contains the same core code and strategy? That a discussion of vim is a discussion of vi? But let's allow Google to decide this for us: Search for "vi/vim" : "About 482,000 results" ... Q.E.D. > On the other hand, please stop bashing modes ... You won't get far with this as an argument. All modern editors bash modes by not having them (the sincerest form of unflattery). Not one editor written since 1980 has used modes (except vim, of course), because they're an idea whose purpose has vanished. > and stop including VIM in your rants. Vim is vi brought back to life -- old wine in a new bottle.
    - klibertp 14y ago
      VIM is the de facto vi on many platforms, I suppose that this is the reason for your search results. I agree that VIM derives from vi, it's obvious - my point, however, is that the additions and improvements and changes in VIM are many times larger (in terms of code and "user facing surface" like commands) than the core itself; and that essentially creates a new, separate product. Take MS DOS and MS Windows 95 as an example - IIRC Win95 still ran under DOS, yet it exposed completely new APIs and model of user interaction. Would you say that discussing Win95 means discussing DOS? Would you say that Win95 is the same as DOS? As for modes - I didn't want to get into this - you seem to be convinced that having modes is a bad thing. Your argument is that "every other editor is modeless" - and it's false. The truth is that almost every modern, serious editor includes vi emulation mode and hence can work in a modal fashion - from Visual Studio to PyCharm to SublimeText all of them have an option to have modes. So your argument is simply wrong. Is modal editing objectively worse thing? I don't believe so. I think that, while introducing some overhead for simple commands (one additional key press for changing modes) it significantly simplifies complex things, because you don't need modifiers and chaining commands is easier. As for VIM being vi brought back to life - see Win95 argument above.

lutusp 14y ago

> It's true for vi, but VIM has a mode indicator on a status bar since times immemorial. That's a nice improvement -- an indicator to tell you which of the three exclusive modes you're in at the moment. But imagine this -- imagine eliminating both the indicator, and the modes, all in one fell swoop, as modern editors have done. > ... please take a closer look at modern VIM and then come back with a critique that makes sense in 2013. When I wrote Apple Writer in 1978, I rendered vi/vim obsolete (and my program became a best-seller based on its ease of use). Among other things, Apple Writer didn't either have or require modes. Neither have any more recent editors, all of which had to compete with Apple Writer or its descendants.

klibertp 14y ago
"imagine eliminating both the indicator, and the modes" I was using modeless editors all my life; I was working with Zend Studio and Komodo IDE which are definitely modern editors. Yet I chose to have modes and switched to VIM. In other words I have no problem with imagining editors you talk about, I just don't like them. "When I wrote Apple Writer in 1978 ..." That's a funny thing, because VIM appeared in 1993 and only really became what it is now around 2006. Whatever you did deprecate, it was not VIM. With all due respect, you seem to know next to nothing about modern VIM. You didn't use it, right? I am using it every day and I can compare it with several other editors and I can assure you that VIM offers nearly everything other editors do inside the insert mode - you can work never leaving it, then it's like it was modeless - and that normal mode is an additional feature that accomplishes things not possible in other editors at all. Anyway, I'm alright with you convincing people not to use vi. It's archaic and cumbersome, has many missing features and so on. On the other hand, please stop bashing modes - it's ok that you don't like them, but that's your personal choice - and stop including VIM in your rants.
- lutusp 14y ago
  > That's a funny thing, because VIM appeared in 1993 and only really became what it is now around 2006. Whatever you did deprecate, it was not VIM. I identified my subject very clearly. Are you really unaware that vim derives from vi, and contains the same core code and strategy? That a discussion of vim is a discussion of vi? But let's allow Google to decide this for us: Search for "vi/vim" : "About 482,000 results" ... Q.E.D. > On the other hand, please stop bashing modes ... You won't get far with this as an argument. All modern editors bash modes by not having them (the sincerest form of unflattery). Not one editor written since 1980 has used modes (except vim, of course), because they're an idea whose purpose has vanished. > and stop including VIM in your rants. Vim is vi brought back to life -- old wine in a new bottle.
  - klibertp 14y ago
    VIM is the de facto vi on many platforms, I suppose that this is the reason for your search results. I agree that VIM derives from vi, it's obvious - my point, however, is that the additions and improvements and changes in VIM are many times larger (in terms of code and "user facing surface" like commands) than the core itself; and that essentially creates a new, separate product. Take MS DOS and MS Windows 95 as an example - IIRC Win95 still ran under DOS, yet it exposed completely new APIs and model of user interaction. Would you say that discussing Win95 means discussing DOS? Would you say that Win95 is the same as DOS? As for modes - I didn't want to get into this - you seem to be convinced that having modes is a bad thing. Your argument is that "every other editor is modeless" - and it's false. The truth is that almost every modern, serious editor includes vi emulation mode and hence can work in a modal fashion - from Visual Studio to PyCharm to SublimeText all of them have an option to have modes. So your argument is simply wrong. Is modal editing objectively worse thing? I don't believe so. I think that, while introducing some overhead for simple commands (one additional key press for changing modes) it significantly simplifies complex things, because you don't need modifiers and chaining commands is easier. As for VIM being vi brought back to life - see Win95 argument above.