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For the people living through the supposed transition between the Classical Period and the Dark Ages, though, apparently, there was no such stark difference. Y

For the people living through the supposed transition between the Classical Period and the Dark Ages, though, apparently, there was no such stark difference. Yes and no. Roman decline really happened, but the significance attached to 476 AD is an artifact developed later, when the decline actually happened over hundreds of years. As you noted, the Eastern Roman Empire carried on for another thousand years, and the Catholic Church remains the largest religion in the world. There was a decline in trade complexity, literacy, and probably standard of living at the top of society. Medieval historians did believe they were in a time of decline and ruin (this was heavily influenced by Christianity and its apocalyptic prophecies) but the average Germanic peasant didn't know enough to care either way, and probably had no substantial change in his material well-being from 100 AD to 600 AD (or 1700 AD). One of the things to keep in mind is oblique comparison. Most people who perceive decline compare their status to that of elite people in the past, creating a sense that things were better then. You'd certainly be better off as a Roman patrician than as a peasant in 7th-century Bavaria, but that's not a proper comparison. From the perspective of a literate elite, there was civil and industrial decline, explaining the impressive infrastructure that had fallen into disrepair. For the average European, there probably wasn't a directional change, but the average European left no writing.

lifeisstillgood 14y ago
Thank you - that has made a difference I could not express much clearer. Would it be fair to say that the average rural worker since the invention of farming had a sh*t standard of living till sometime in 20th century. It is just the upper levels of society that saw and benefited from swings in civilisation. Interesting.
Retric 14y ago
There where significant advances in mathematics and technology in the dark ages along with a massive population boom. Most notably algebra, armor, bows (long, compound), clocks, and fortifications. But, also agriculture, animal husbandry, musical instruments, tools, manufacturing, and many others. What was missing was a unified empire and the trappings of such, but there where a lot more practical advancements than most people understand. PS: The roman army was great for it's time, but they would have been decimated by far smaller 'dark' age equivalents. The closest real world comparison was Hernán Cortés and the fall of the Aztec Empire using 6 guns ~2,000 people, 100 horses they could easily take on the euqivelent of an 100,000 man incan army. (Incan army was larger than that but they had native help.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hern%C3%A1n_Cort%C3%A9s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hern%C3%A1n_Cort%C3%A9s
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  You're right, and the "Dark Ages" concept comes with a Western European bias. For China and the Muslim world, it was a time of prosperity and advancement. War, as you've noted, is one thing that medieval Europe was (compared to the Romans) quite good at. There's a misconception that European swords were heavy, awkward, and dull. While they were never as aesthetically attractive as Japanese swords, they were formidable and more than good enough to do the job.
InvisibleCities 14y ago
>For the average European, there probably wasn't a directional change, but the average European left no writing. The average European went from a free citizen of Rome to a serf, laboring under conditions that bordered on slavery. I'd say that's a pretty radical negative change.
- Turing_Machine 14y ago
  "The average European went from a free citizen of Rome to a serf, laboring under conditions that bordered on slavery." ~30-40% of the population of Roman Italy was made up of (real) slaves and most Europeans did not have Roman citizenship until so late in the Empire that it didn't really gain them much (it was actually disadvantageous to most -- Caracalla only instituted universal Roman citizenship so he could raise the taxes on the new "citizens"). I agree that serfdom wasn't much better. IIRC, one of the few advantages of serfdom was that you couldn't (in general) be sold away from your family. Serfs were considered part of the land.

lifeisstillgood 14y ago

Thank you - that has made a difference I could not express much clearer. Would it be fair to say that the average rural worker since the invention of farming had a sh*t standard of living till sometime in 20th century. It is just the upper levels of society that saw and benefited from swings in civilisation. Interesting.

Retric 14y ago

There where significant advances in mathematics and technology in the dark ages along with a massive population boom. Most notably algebra, armor, bows (long, compound), clocks, and fortifications. But, also agriculture, animal husbandry, musical instruments, tools, manufacturing, and many others. What was missing was a unified empire and the trappings of such, but there where a lot more practical advancements than most people understand. PS: The roman army was great for it's time, but they would have been decimated by far smaller 'dark' age equivalents. The closest real world comparison was Hernán Cortés and the fall of the Aztec Empire using 6 guns ~2,000 people, 100 horses they could easily take on the euqivelent of an 100,000 man incan army. (Incan army was larger than that but they had native help.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hern%C3%A1n_Cort%C3%A9s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hern%C3%A1n_Cort%C3%A9s

michaelochurch 14y ago
You're right, and the "Dark Ages" concept comes with a Western European bias. For China and the Muslim world, it was a time of prosperity and advancement. War, as you've noted, is one thing that medieval Europe was (compared to the Romans) quite good at. There's a misconception that European swords were heavy, awkward, and dull. While they were never as aesthetically attractive as Japanese swords, they were formidable and more than good enough to do the job.

InvisibleCities 14y ago

>For the average European, there probably wasn't a directional change, but the average European left no writing. The average European went from a free citizen of Rome to a serf, laboring under conditions that bordered on slavery. I'd say that's a pretty radical negative change.

Turing_Machine 14y ago
"The average European went from a free citizen of Rome to a serf, laboring under conditions that bordered on slavery." ~30-40% of the population of Roman Italy was made up of (real) slaves and most Europeans did not have Roman citizenship until so late in the Empire that it didn't really gain them much (it was actually disadvantageous to most -- Caracalla only instituted universal Roman citizenship so he could raise the taxes on the new "citizens"). I agree that serfdom wasn't much better. IIRC, one of the few advantages of serfdom was that you couldn't (in general) be sold away from your family. Serfs were considered part of the land.