7 ms·

Last.fm Radio will soon require a subscription

44 points by arthurk 18y ago

verdant 18y ago
Does anyone know the reason behind this change? Is it a measure because of cost of operation in certain countries or is it a legal issue?
- jwilliams 18y ago
  It's the former, sort of... See the comment on the post titled "Joost, HodgeStar, et al": (I can't find a permalink) "These are the countries in which we have the most resources to support an ad sales organization, which is how we earn money to pay artists and labels for their music." Edit: Found the permalink: http://blog.last.fm/2009/03/24/lastfm-radio-announcement#c007521 http://blog.last.fm/2009/03/24/lastfm-radio-announcement#c00...
  - gaius 18y ago
    It's funny how people who use Last.fm's content and bandwidth for free think Last.fm will be hurt in any way by them leaving.
    - batasrki 18y ago
      Call me naive, but were a large percentage of users to leave, they will be hurt. Not just from the traffic and revenue perspective, but also from a reputation one. Take a gander at the comments. There are not just normal users, but also independent artists and even a record executive from Brazil. This is a serious move and potentially, a very damaging one.
      - mikedouglas 18y ago
        How about from a profitability perspective? I think we should suck it up, and realize large companies aren't going to subsidize what we want to do on the internet, forever. If Last.fm isn't €3/month, don't pay it.
        batasrki 18y ago
        I realize that, but at the same time, I realize that they've offered this service for free for a long, long time. Also, I wouldn't mind it so much, if they were to charge everyone. However, charging everyone but the English, Americans and Germans is patently unfair. Also, the people from those countries already get services and features no one else does. So now we're talking about the rest of the world subsidizing what users from only three countries consume from Last.fm. You cannot tell me that that's fair or that it even makes sense.
        mikedouglas 18y ago
        The UK, USA and Germany are large enough markets for them to sell ads in. If anything, over the last few years, ad sales in those countries has been subsidizing everyone else. Hulu, Kindle, GrandCentral, etc. It's not like this is a new experience for Canadians. It sucks, but I don't blame the companies for being forced to realize market realities.
        batasrki 18y ago
        If what you say is true, that was not indicated in their announcement. As for market realities, it's a reality that they've offered this service worldwide. Hulu, Kindle, etc. have not. It's unrealistic to not expect a huge backlash against a service that's restricting itself to only those markets where they think they might make money. As some commenters have rightly indicated, losing the scrobbling ability of the whole wide world will inevitably degrade the service of the "special" ones. And trust me, I've already stopped feeding them information. Also, come end of March and I will take my business elsewhere. I don't mind paying for a service. I do mind discrimination and senseless discrimination I mind even more.
        mikedouglas 18y ago
        "It's unrealistic to not expect a huge backlash against a service that's restricting itself to only those markets where they think they might make money." Which, in one sentence, explains the insanity of the mindset of web startups at the moment. Fortunately, it looks like that's starting to change. "And trust me, I've already stopped feeding them information. Also, come end of March and I will take my business elsewhere." Great. Especially if you think Last.fm is wrong about the value of your market, why not start a competitor? "I don't mind paying for a service. I do mind discrimination and senseless discrimination I mind even more." There shouldn't be a taboo against saying you don't think last.fm (or any web startup) isn't worth paying for, but I hope you still don't think this is the result of CBSs xenophobia.
      - lallysingh 18y ago
        Well, the options are that or starving to death in a crap economy. No matter how good some of the clients may be, if they can't make money off of them, they're wasted resources. If people want free Pandora in their area, push people to advertise w/Pandora. Someone's got to cover the expense, and clearly Pandora themselves can't cover it anymore.
    - mtarnovan 18y ago
      Let's apply the same logic for Google. Wait, what?
      - gaius 18y ago
        The bandwidth necessary to serve Google's minimalist web pages is trivial compared to that to stream music.
        mikebo 18y ago
        Not to mention the music licensing fees. Do people realize that last.fm has to pay music labels every time a user streams a track?
ChrisXYZ 18y ago
I'm from Canada and I won't be subscribing. I use last.fm and while it has some cool features and I've discovered a lot of new bands, it just doesn't play very good songs on the actual radio. I've tried making stations around all kinds of different bands, genres, or set ups, and it still seems to consistently pick mediocre tracks. My girlfriend found the same thing. I remember Pandora being a lot better in that regard.
- batasrki 18y ago
  I'm from Canada, too, and I've been listening for a while now. They don't always play the best music, but the variety is nice. Having said that, I think this is a load of horse manure. I don't think that charging some, but not others is very fair. Also, isn't there and Internet adage that says once you release something for free, you can't turn around and charge for it? Or have I been reading too much SvN? In any case, $6/month (CAD) for myself and the same amount for my wife is not worth it. edit: Also, this makes a good case for proxy software. If I'm able to set up a proxy that makes it appear to Last.fm, Pandora, Spotify, etc. that my IP is from the country they accept, I will still get free music. Am I wrong in that conclusion?
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
  - paulgb 18y ago
    > If I'm able to set up a proxy that makes it appear to Last.fm, Pandora, Spotify, etc. that my IP is from the country they accept, I will still get free music. I've considered creating EC2 instances and using ssh tunneling to get hulu and some other US-only sites from Canada. I'm not sure if the TOS allows it (of Amazon; I'm pretty sure the TOS of hulu doesn't allow it). I'll try it out when I get back to Canada. And not to get too off-topic, but since you and the above poster are Canadian also, I feel I have to mention CBC's music podcasts which are pretty good if you find one that fits your musical taste: http://www.cbc.ca/podcasting/ http://www.cbc.ca/podcasting/
    - wvenable 18y ago
Celcius 18y ago
Besides €3 probobly being enough set up a tunnel too Germany, USA or UK and then get the free service (aswell as having a way around that problem on other occations). I can't help but feel sorry for the poor nations where €3 is an unreasonable amount of money. I get that it was a buisness decission but them exempting certain countries just alienates those of us who aren't on that list, or at least that's how I feel.
- tomjen 18y ago
  It pisses me off when I am being treated differently on the internet based on where I am in the real word. It is one of the reasons Hulu won't get my patronage even if they extend to other countries outside the us. In this case it didn't matter much, I won't sign up (or pay) just to _hear_ music that I can't even choose my self.
  - Goronmon 18y ago
    It pisses you off that your use of the service isn't being subsidized by other parts of the world anymore? I mean, that's what seems to be the reason for instituting the fee. They are able to use ad sales to generate revenue for the 3 countries mentioned, so the service is paid for that way. They aren't able to generate enough ad revenue in the other countries, hence the fee. I do find the general reactions a bit perplexing. Most range along the lines of "Everyone should pay or no one should pay.", "Companies should charge the people who can afford it more.", "I expect music to always be free to listen to." and "I refuse to pay for music, so I will now go back to pirating more."
    - seertaak 18y ago
      Or: "3 euros a month is too much". 10c per day -- too much!
  - intranation 18y ago
    They've gone on record as saying the reason the 3 countries were picked as keeping the status quo is purely down to advertising sales in those countries. What's really stupid is the way international entities still segment countries as far as bottom line goes. I assume this is for tax reasons or similar, but since their products cross international borders it just seems a bit strange.
alabut 18y ago
I never really got into last.fm because Pandora is so good. I just recently started using Pandora again after a long break and it's even better than when I first started using it - I used to have thumbs down individual songs all the time to teach it what songs or artists to include in a channel, I can't even remember the last time that I've had to do that.
- trezor 18y ago
  Notice that if you are not from the US, trying to access pandora.com will lead you to http://www.pandora.com/restricted http://www.pandora.com/restricted Yeah. Pandora pretty much sucks too.
paul7986 18y ago
Oh no Last.fm sounds like music industry is playing Dr. Kevorkian, yet again! I hope Last.fm can survive this stupidity!
andrewl-hn 18y ago
Personally I haven't used Last.fm. But until recently I was a big fan of LaunchCast. Unfortunately Yahoo decided to shutdown it's own music infrastructure and teamed up with CBS: http://ymusicblog.com/blog/2009/02/21/the-new-launchcast-radio-is-here/ http://ymusicblog.com/blog/2009/02/21/the-new-launchcast-rad... The new service is nowhere near as good as it used to be. I could rate the artist, the album, and the track separately and I could listen to My station based on my ratings. I used it for more than a year and really liked it. With a new service I can rate tracks only, my old ratings are not supported by a recommendation engine, and MyStation feature is gone. Initially I thought it was a part of Yahoo! strategy change (they outsourced paid music subscriptions to Rhapsody last year). But now it seems to me that it might be a policy shift withing CBS itself. The Yahoo! partnership was announced just a month ago, the change was abrupt and totally unexpected. I only wonder why not just replace LaunchCast with co-branded Y!-Last.fm altogether.

44 points by arthurk 18y ago

Does anyone know the reason behind this change? Is it a measure because of cost of operation in certain countries or is it a legal issue?

jwilliams 18y ago
It's the former, sort of... See the comment on the post titled "Joost, HodgeStar, et al": (I can't find a permalink) "These are the countries in which we have the most resources to support an ad sales organization, which is how we earn money to pay artists and labels for their music." Edit: Found the permalink: http://blog.last.fm/2009/03/24/lastfm-radio-announcement#c007521 http://blog.last.fm/2009/03/24/lastfm-radio-announcement#c00...
- gaius 18y ago
  It's funny how people who use Last.fm's content and bandwidth for free think Last.fm will be hurt in any way by them leaving.
  - batasrki 18y ago
    Call me naive, but were a large percentage of users to leave, they will be hurt. Not just from the traffic and revenue perspective, but also from a reputation one. Take a gander at the comments. There are not just normal users, but also independent artists and even a record executive from Brazil. This is a serious move and potentially, a very damaging one.
    - mikedouglas 18y ago
      How about from a profitability perspective? I think we should suck it up, and realize large companies aren't going to subsidize what we want to do on the internet, forever. If Last.fm isn't €3/month, don't pay it.
      - batasrki 18y ago
        I realize that, but at the same time, I realize that they've offered this service for free for a long, long time. Also, I wouldn't mind it so much, if they were to charge everyone. However, charging everyone but the English, Americans and Germans is patently unfair. Also, the people from those countries already get services and features no one else does. So now we're talking about the rest of the world subsidizing what users from only three countries consume from Last.fm. You cannot tell me that that's fair or that it even makes sense.
        mikedouglas 18y ago
        The UK, USA and Germany are large enough markets for them to sell ads in. If anything, over the last few years, ad sales in those countries has been subsidizing everyone else. Hulu, Kindle, GrandCentral, etc. It's not like this is a new experience for Canadians. It sucks, but I don't blame the companies for being forced to realize market realities.
        batasrki 18y ago
        If what you say is true, that was not indicated in their announcement. As for market realities, it's a reality that they've offered this service worldwide. Hulu, Kindle, etc. have not. It's unrealistic to not expect a huge backlash against a service that's restricting itself to only those markets where they think they might make money. As some commenters have rightly indicated, losing the scrobbling ability of the whole wide world will inevitably degrade the service of the "special" ones. And trust me, I've already stopped feeding them information. Also, come end of March and I will take my business elsewhere. I don't mind paying for a service. I do mind discrimination and senseless discrimination I mind even more.
        mikedouglas 18y ago
        "It's unrealistic to not expect a huge backlash against a service that's restricting itself to only those markets where they think they might make money." Which, in one sentence, explains the insanity of the mindset of web startups at the moment. Fortunately, it looks like that's starting to change. "And trust me, I've already stopped feeding them information. Also, come end of March and I will take my business elsewhere." Great. Especially if you think Last.fm is wrong about the value of your market, why not start a competitor? "I don't mind paying for a service. I do mind discrimination and senseless discrimination I mind even more." There shouldn't be a taboo against saying you don't think last.fm (or any web startup) isn't worth paying for, but I hope you still don't think this is the result of CBSs xenophobia.
    - lallysingh 18y ago
      Well, the options are that or starving to death in a crap economy. No matter how good some of the clients may be, if they can't make money off of them, they're wasted resources. If people want free Pandora in their area, push people to advertise w/Pandora. Someone's got to cover the expense, and clearly Pandora themselves can't cover it anymore.
  - mtarnovan 18y ago
    Let's apply the same logic for Google. Wait, what?
    - gaius 18y ago
      The bandwidth necessary to serve Google's minimalist web pages is trivial compared to that to stream music.
      - mikebo 18y ago
        Not to mention the music licensing fees. Do people realize that last.fm has to pay music labels every time a user streams a track?

ChrisXYZ 18y ago

I'm from Canada and I won't be subscribing. I use last.fm and while it has some cool features and I've discovered a lot of new bands, it just doesn't play very good songs on the actual radio. I've tried making stations around all kinds of different bands, genres, or set ups, and it still seems to consistently pick mediocre tracks. My girlfriend found the same thing. I remember Pandora being a lot better in that regard.

batasrki 18y ago
I'm from Canada, too, and I've been listening for a while now. They don't always play the best music, but the variety is nice. Having said that, I think this is a load of horse manure. I don't think that charging some, but not others is very fair. Also, isn't there and Internet adage that says once you release something for free, you can't turn around and charge for it? Or have I been reading too much SvN? In any case, $6/month (CAD) for myself and the same amount for my wife is not worth it. edit: Also, this makes a good case for proxy software. If I'm able to set up a proxy that makes it appear to Last.fm, Pandora, Spotify, etc. that my IP is from the country they accept, I will still get free music. Am I wrong in that conclusion?
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- paulgb 18y ago
  > If I'm able to set up a proxy that makes it appear to Last.fm, Pandora, Spotify, etc. that my IP is from the country they accept, I will still get free music. I've considered creating EC2 instances and using ssh tunneling to get hulu and some other US-only sites from Canada. I'm not sure if the TOS allows it (of Amazon; I'm pretty sure the TOS of hulu doesn't allow it). I'll try it out when I get back to Canada. And not to get too off-topic, but since you and the above poster are Canadian also, I feel I have to mention CBC's music podcasts which are pretty good if you find one that fits your musical taste: http://www.cbc.ca/podcasting/ http://www.cbc.ca/podcasting/
  - wvenable 18y ago

Celcius 18y ago

Besides €3 probobly being enough set up a tunnel too Germany, USA or UK and then get the free service (aswell as having a way around that problem on other occations). I can't help but feel sorry for the poor nations where €3 is an unreasonable amount of money. I get that it was a buisness decission but them exempting certain countries just alienates those of us who aren't on that list, or at least that's how I feel.

tomjen 18y ago
It pisses me off when I am being treated differently on the internet based on where I am in the real word. It is one of the reasons Hulu won't get my patronage even if they extend to other countries outside the us. In this case it didn't matter much, I won't sign up (or pay) just to _hear_ music that I can't even choose my self.
- Goronmon 18y ago
  It pisses you off that your use of the service isn't being subsidized by other parts of the world anymore? I mean, that's what seems to be the reason for instituting the fee. They are able to use ad sales to generate revenue for the 3 countries mentioned, so the service is paid for that way. They aren't able to generate enough ad revenue in the other countries, hence the fee. I do find the general reactions a bit perplexing. Most range along the lines of "Everyone should pay or no one should pay.", "Companies should charge the people who can afford it more.", "I expect music to always be free to listen to." and "I refuse to pay for music, so I will now go back to pirating more."
  - seertaak 18y ago
    Or: "3 euros a month is too much". 10c per day -- too much!
- intranation 18y ago
  They've gone on record as saying the reason the 3 countries were picked as keeping the status quo is purely down to advertising sales in those countries. What's really stupid is the way international entities still segment countries as far as bottom line goes. I assume this is for tax reasons or similar, but since their products cross international borders it just seems a bit strange.

alabut 18y ago

I never really got into last.fm because Pandora is so good. I just recently started using Pandora again after a long break and it's even better than when I first started using it - I used to have thumbs down individual songs all the time to teach it what songs or artists to include in a channel, I can't even remember the last time that I've had to do that.

trezor 18y ago
Notice that if you are not from the US, trying to access pandora.com will lead you to http://www.pandora.com/restricted http://www.pandora.com/restricted Yeah. Pandora pretty much sucks too.

paul7986 18y ago

Oh no Last.fm sounds like music industry is playing Dr. Kevorkian, yet again! I hope Last.fm can survive this stupidity!

andrewl-hn 18y ago

Personally I haven't used Last.fm. But until recently I was a big fan of LaunchCast. Unfortunately Yahoo decided to shutdown it's own music infrastructure and teamed up with CBS: http://ymusicblog.com/blog/2009/02/21/the-new-launchcast-radio-is-here/ http://ymusicblog.com/blog/2009/02/21/the-new-launchcast-rad... The new service is nowhere near as good as it used to be. I could rate the artist, the album, and the track separately and I could listen to My station based on my ratings. I used it for more than a year and really liked it. With a new service I can rate tracks only, my old ratings are not supported by a recommendation engine, and MyStation feature is gone. Initially I thought it was a part of Yahoo! strategy change (they outsourced paid music subscriptions to Rhapsody last year). But now it seems to me that it might be a policy shift withing CBS itself. The Yahoo! partnership was announced just a month ago, the change was abrupt and totally unexpected. I only wonder why not just replace LaunchCast with co-branded Y!-Last.fm altogether.