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neilk, thanks for the response. I think your metaphor of educational software being analogous to corporate software is right on. Often times, teachers and stude

by glen 18y ago

neilk, thanks for the response. I think your metaphor of educational software being analogous to corporate software is right on. Often times, teachers and students are not even consulted on what is purchased and implemented. I also really like the idea of getting a belt in martial arts. Passing grades has become so expected and boring that there really isn't a differentiation there or a marker that the student has actually achieved something. If you were creating different paths for students to take, how would you organize the content/courses? Would you stay with the curriculum process that is taught in K-12 schools and just allow students to go at their own pace? or would you change it? If you'd change it, what would you use to determine the curriculum path? Your point about integrating education with real things is perfect. Something we've been thinking about is creating a type of student corp or tutor corp that would match up smart students with struggling students. Peer 2 Peer learning is going to be huge b/c it is really the only thing that scales. (As David Wiley has said, we have limited "teacher bandwidth" so we need to get creative, particularly when you look at things in the context of the entire world. There is just simply not enough educators out there and we are not exactly efficient at turning them out.) So, the question becomes: How do you create an ethos in which students want to help other students? Do you think an open platform that allows this would be sufficient? or, do you think you'd need to be deliberate about creating this culture? If the latter, then how would you go about conscientiously creating this type of atmosphere? One thought is to incentivise it so that students and teachers are rewarded for reaching out. This could come in the form of Karma points, recommendations, a moving up (to stay with your metaphor: yellow belt--> green belt etc.). What else would you recommend?

neilk 18y ago
I'm not really an expert in education. I just get ranty about it. Go talk to John Taylor Gatto, or the people behind Frontier College in Canada, or Room to Read, or self-identified Edupunks... the list goes on. I offered the martial arts metaphor not because I think graduation lacks pizzazz, but because in the martial arts, students learn at their own pace. Someone who walks in the door at the age of 50 is exactly where some kid is who starts at the age of 12. It is anti-pedagogical to label some students as stupid because they just learn a bit slower than others and aren't advancing in lockstep. It's similarly wrong to label some students as "brilliant" because they happen to master some subjects more quickly. Often what you are measuring there is just greater preparation and support in the home. Schools are a reward and punishment system for trudging through certain institutional expectations of potential (not even actual work or achievement). We don't have this concept in any other human institution -- even the army acknowledges that some people will progress through the ranks at their own pace, and that some people are specialists, others are generalists, some are leaders, others are followers. The expectation of standardized results of human development is a sign that the institution is not being run with the intent to develop real skills. I have no idea what peer to peer learning would look like, but perhaps that is an interesting model. I disagree that there is limited teacher bandwidth. A society that can pay $5 for a cup of coffee could afford many teachers. A world where the most brilliant and hardworking professionals are confronting nearly 20-30 years of retirement could probably have a glut of teachers, if it wanted. Do you think an open platform that allows this would be sufficient? I don't know what that means. Books are a pretty open platform, and students haven't managed to teach each other using those. What about your technology is going to be superior to books?
neilk 18y ago
If you'd change it, what would you use to determine the curriculum path? I would abolish it. If your objection is "but then how do we get standardized results" my response is: exactly! Would it be a disaster if students entered the workplace without standardized results? After a few years in the workplace, they are evaluated on their individual resume anyway, so what's special about the student to worker gap? Why do we assume that society needs a standardized product there? That said, I think some direction has to be made clear to the students, that math leads to these sorts of jobs and lifestyles, and English leads to these things, and so on. Institutions may want to set their own curricula which are also verified by government-standardized tests, for more easily measured things like literacy or mathematics skills.

by glen 18y ago

neilk 18y ago

I'm not really an expert in education. I just get ranty about it. Go talk to John Taylor Gatto, or the people behind Frontier College in Canada, or Room to Read, or self-identified Edupunks... the list goes on. I offered the martial arts metaphor not because I think graduation lacks pizzazz, but because in the martial arts, students learn at their own pace. Someone who walks in the door at the age of 50 is exactly where some kid is who starts at the age of 12. It is anti-pedagogical to label some students as stupid because they just learn a bit slower than others and aren't advancing in lockstep. It's similarly wrong to label some students as "brilliant" because they happen to master some subjects more quickly. Often what you are measuring there is just greater preparation and support in the home. Schools are a reward and punishment system for trudging through certain institutional expectations of potential (not even actual work or achievement). We don't have this concept in any other human institution -- even the army acknowledges that some people will progress through the ranks at their own pace, and that some people are specialists, others are generalists, some are leaders, others are followers. The expectation of standardized results of human development is a sign that the institution is not being run with the intent to develop real skills. I have no idea what peer to peer learning would look like, but perhaps that is an interesting model. I disagree that there is limited teacher bandwidth. A society that can pay $5 for a cup of coffee could afford many teachers. A world where the most brilliant and hardworking professionals are confronting nearly 20-30 years of retirement could probably have a glut of teachers, if it wanted. Do you think an open platform that allows this would be sufficient? I don't know what that means. Books are a pretty open platform, and students haven't managed to teach each other using those. What about your technology is going to be superior to books?

neilk 18y ago

If you'd change it, what would you use to determine the curriculum path? I would abolish it. If your objection is "but then how do we get standardized results" my response is: exactly! Would it be a disaster if students entered the workplace without standardized results? After a few years in the workplace, they are evaluated on their individual resume anyway, so what's special about the student to worker gap? Why do we assume that society needs a standardized product there? That said, I think some direction has to be made clear to the students, that math leads to these sorts of jobs and lifestyles, and English leads to these things, and so on. Institutions may want to set their own curricula which are also verified by government-standardized tests, for more easily measured things like literacy or mathematics skills.