6 ms·

How We Treat Pets in America

61 points by rohin 14y ago

nsns 14y ago
Somewhat ironic to find this post two links above the one about lab rats getting tortured for "science". I guess rats are uglier.
- Falling3 14y ago
  I for one find this kind of cognitive dissonance extremely upsetting and a bit perplexing. People are easily able to compartmentalize their feelings about various animals. This leads to neat little groups - food, pet, science experiment. It's very frustrating to me.
  - __david__ 14y ago
    > It's very frustrating to me. Why? We're human beings--all we do is categorize...
    - Falling3 14y ago
      Yes, I'm aware of the natural proclivity. That's part of what leads to to racism and stereotyping. We don't shrug those off as just being natural.
  - youngerdryas 14y ago
    >This leads to neat little groups Not so neat. Some people eat dog and some have pet rats.
    - Falling3 14y ago
      I didn't say they were universally accepted groups. Those people who have pet rats likely do not want rats being experimented on. And those people who eat dogs probably don't keep them as beloved pets.
  - bjt 14y ago
    If it's purely the compartmentalization that upsets you, then you'd be happier if people were totally cool about tossing the Frisbee around with their dog Spot on Saturday, then cooking him up for Sunday dinner. Is that the case? Anyway, people are a mix of rationality and emotions. We build up emotional attachments to the animals we keep as pets, and get uneasy thinking about using them in meals or experiments.
    - Falling3 14y ago
      I'd prefer some consistency. If people think it's horrific to eat a dog, there's no reason they should be perfectly cool eating a pig.
- SilasX 14y ago
  Worse, rats are at least as capable of training and intelligent behavior as dogs, making the differential treatment even harder to understand. One significant difference though, is the rate at which rats breed and how much more of a negative load they can place on the environment (and humans) when released into the wild.
- gizmo686 14y ago
  In this case, it might extend beyond rats being uglier. There is research supporting the idea that the human/dog relationship is a case of coevalution [1] [1]http://theacademy.typepad.com/files/coevolution03.pdf http://theacademy.typepad.com/files/coevolution03.pdf
papsosouid 14y ago
It is worth noting that the campaign to make spaying and neutering required has also done considerable harm. Puppies are often spayed and neutered as young as 6 weeks, despite the numerous health problems associated with the practice. Even the standard 6 months causes significant increases in a number of health problems. We need to stop punishing our pets based on the notion that if we don't get them fixed early, they will breed via magic or spores or something of the sort. You can in fact prevent your dog from having sex with other dogs.
- jug6ernaut 14y ago
  "they will breed via magic or spores or something of the sort." You obviously don't understand the problem, the problem isn't with people who are responsible. The problem is with people dump there dogs on the side of the road, the people who breed there dogs because it sounded cool, or to make money and end up not being able to sell them/give them away and end up dumping them somewhere. I have never heard of "significant increases in a number of health problems" in spaying/neutering at the sixth month mark, this may be different for some dogs but thats besides the point. Spaying/neutering is not bad, doing so indiscriminately(like everything) is bad. I dont know where your coming from calling it "punishing" the pets. Even with the surgery itself most dogs are up & running in 1-2 days. I would agree that spaying/neutering is not the complete answer. We should be punishing people who hurt there pets. You should not be able to have a pet if you have been proven not responsible to have one, you should be punished for doing harm to them. Pets arn't the problem, people are. Pet over population and other problems are simply the sad side effect of humanity.
  - papsosouid 14y ago
    >You obviously don't understand the problem, the problem isn't with people who are responsible That indicates that I do understand the problem. Trying to push responsible owners to harm their pets because other people would let their dogs breed doesn't make any sense. >I have never heard of "significant increases in a number of health problems" in spaying/neutering at the sixth month mark That is why I am mentioning it, because so few people realize there is a problem. There has been a blind push to having all animals spayed/neutered before they are mature, without regards to the welfare of the animals. A list of some health problems associated with desexing: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/02/17/dangers-of-early-pet-spaying-or-neutering.aspx http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/201... >I dont know where your coming from calling it "punishing" the pets. I suspect you would have no confusion if it were your sex organs being removed.
michaelochurch 14y ago
Sorry to be "that guy" but "dog days" has nothing to do with a summertime culling of stray dogs. It has to do with the "Dog Star", Sirius: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_days http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_days This is a good article, and puppy mills (and the general unnaturalness of many dog breeds) are something more people should know about.
- rohin 14y ago
  Hey, you're right. We updated the article with your link and clarified the original source better. Thanks for pointing that out.
sharkweek 14y ago
Soap box time!! -- I walk dogs at a local shelter. There is not a common breed that doesn't find it's way through our doors at some point during the year. Sure, you might not end up with a "certified" purebred that's going to win a dog show (do you really want one of those for your family anyway?), but with almost certainty, I can guarantee that you can find what you're looking for at a local shelter. There is almost no reason to "buy" a dog -- the shelters are overcrowded, and the odds are good you can find what you want regarding breed/temperament if you're patient. Responsible shelters will find you the right dog if you tell them what you're looking for.
- nollidge 14y ago
  The Wisconsin Humane Society actually assesses their animals and assigns them a color based on personality and temperament so you can find what you're looking for in a pet. I have to imagine lots of other shelters do this also.
  - sharkweek 14y ago
    Yup, ours has you take a short quiz that matches you with a "color" representing a type of dog. We'd assign new dogs one of these colors based off of about 10 criteria that we would evaluate over a 2-3 day waiting period before they were available for adoption; it really helped lower the return rate of the pups.
- fps 14y ago
  Shelters in Massachusetts are very picky about who they adopt out to. My wife and I looked for a younger large breed dog for nearly a year, and were turned away at every local shelter because our yard wasn't fenced and we both worked full time. A few years earlier, living in an apartment disqualified us from adopting a cat in Massachusetts. We drove 3 hours to adopt a cat from New York, and 2 hours to buy a dog in New Hampshire. Looking at petfinder for my area, the only dogs in shelters nearby are "imported" from Puerto Rico, and even those only go to homes that are worthy. I'm saddened by the conditions in shelters in other parts of the country, but I'm not going to fly to Alabama to find a dog.
bugschivers 14y ago
Funny this comes out, when only last week this research was released http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10498 http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=1049... "Neutering, and the age at which a dog is neutered, may affect the animal’s risk for developing certain cancers and joint diseases" It is also worth checking out Nathan Winograd, who is campaigning to make ALL shelters in America no-kill. It is worth looking at the statistics and reasons why shelters kill animals in their care, as most often, it is not simply that there are not enough homes. http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=10627 http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=10627
Falling3 14y ago
Very happy to see this on HN. I have never understood why people are willing to purchase dogs. Between the conditions of large-scale breeders and the amount of animals waiting in shelters, it's just absurd.
- tjr 14y ago
  Based on my own past anecdotal experiences, I favor adopting a dog from as young as possible (~8 weeks), to endeavor to have more influence over how it turns out. Most shelter dogs that I've encountered in my area are a year or more in age. Large-scale breeders and shelters are not the only two choices; I adopted my most recent dog from a family on a farm. Perhaps in an ideal world, no more dogs would be born until all existing dogs have a permanent home. But that seems unlikely to happen. If nobody adopts the new-born dogs, then would not they just end up in a shelter? If the blame belongs anywhere, it's on those who (at a large scale or at a small scale) breed their dogs, not on the people who adopt them.
  - Falling3 14y ago
    I'm generally in favor of blaming the consumer. Markets respond to pressures. If there were no market for dogs (especially pure-bred dogs), we wouldn't see so many breeders out there. I'm not giving the breeders any sort of free pass, but I've got to ultimately lay the blame at the foot of the consumer. As for your own experiences, I can't speak to those. I've had good luck adopting from shelters even over a year. Old dogs can still learn new tricks. And when getting a young dog, there is no guarantee that you're not going to get one with any of various neuroses.
    - tjr 14y ago
      Either side (or both) could choose to stop the cycle. I did not summon my dog into existence; had there been no dogs available directly from (reputable) breeders, I would have either found an agreeable candidate at a shelter, or not adopted at all. Absurdly, tjr.
- pageld 14y ago
dpatrick86 14y ago
Neutering in rats slightly increases lifespan of the animal. If this could be proven in dogs/cats, etc. as a more general biological phenomenon I think it'd be a great selling point for the procedure to new pet owners. Who doesn't want their new pet to live longer? http://www.ratbehavior.org/Neutering.htm http://www.ratbehavior.org/Neutering.htm
- bugschivers 14y ago
  https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/100301g.aspx https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/100301g.aspx "New research on the biology of aging in dogs suggests a link between shortened life expectancy and ovary removal." "The study, published in the December 2009 issue of the journal Aging Cell, found that Rottweilers that were spayed after they were 6 years old were 4.6 times as likely to reach 13 years of age as were Rottweilers that were spayed at a younger age."
Mc_Big_G 14y ago
I volunteer as a canine friend at the Berkeley East Bay Humane Society and it kills me to know that for every one of the dogs that they save (no kill policy), many other dogs who are just as sweet are put down. I've been volunteering there for a year and have never had a problem with a dog. Their population is almost exclusively pitbulls and they've all been great. I started freelancing a few months ago and my first client was http://www.wagaroo.com http://www.wagaroo.com The site is built with rails and ember.js. It's very MVP right now and any feedback is appreciated. They just got started and are only working with shelters and rescues for now. Their ultimate plan is to include responsible breeders and fight the puppy mills but they are taking their time in order gain understanding and to find the best way to make it happen.
aeturnum 14y ago
Anyone have numbers on the total number of pets in the US? Or on the number of natural deaths each year? It's hard to contextualize these numbers without understanding the overall population.
- bugschivers 14y ago
  http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=10627 http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=10627
__david__ 14y ago
> These breeders can raise their dogs in idyllic conditions of sunny farms, financed by the high premium placed on purebreds. That sounds logical, but from my talking to various breeders it just isn't reality. They claim to barely break even or even lose money, despite charging ~$1000 per dog. Most of them seem to have other income that supplements their hobby. Good breeders are motivated by love of the breed and not by money (which, to be fair the article pointed out).
kirpekar 14y ago
I've never really used their product, but the priceonomics blog is excellent. Complete, thorough, deeply researched and well written. Kudos!
bluedino 14y ago
I thought this article was going to be about the $52 billion a year Americans spend on pets.
rdl 14y ago
This is a great priceonomics post (your blog is amazing, second only to the old OKCupid blog!) I feel kind of bad for wanting a purebred cat now, vs. a shelter cat, but I'll probably do it anyway (the breeder is someone I know, and probably loses $1-2k on each kitten since it's just a hobby for a rich spouse, etc.) Russian Blues seem worth it. I'm considering taking an ex show cat instead of a kitten, though.

61 points by rohin 14y ago

nsns 14y ago

Somewhat ironic to find this post two links above the one about lab rats getting tortured for "science". I guess rats are uglier.

Falling3 14y ago
I for one find this kind of cognitive dissonance extremely upsetting and a bit perplexing. People are easily able to compartmentalize their feelings about various animals. This leads to neat little groups - food, pet, science experiment. It's very frustrating to me.
- __david__ 14y ago
  > It's very frustrating to me. Why? We're human beings--all we do is categorize...
  - Falling3 14y ago
    Yes, I'm aware of the natural proclivity. That's part of what leads to to racism and stereotyping. We don't shrug those off as just being natural.
- youngerdryas 14y ago
  >This leads to neat little groups Not so neat. Some people eat dog and some have pet rats.
  - Falling3 14y ago
    I didn't say they were universally accepted groups. Those people who have pet rats likely do not want rats being experimented on. And those people who eat dogs probably don't keep them as beloved pets.
- bjt 14y ago
  If it's purely the compartmentalization that upsets you, then you'd be happier if people were totally cool about tossing the Frisbee around with their dog Spot on Saturday, then cooking him up for Sunday dinner. Is that the case? Anyway, people are a mix of rationality and emotions. We build up emotional attachments to the animals we keep as pets, and get uneasy thinking about using them in meals or experiments.
  - Falling3 14y ago
    I'd prefer some consistency. If people think it's horrific to eat a dog, there's no reason they should be perfectly cool eating a pig.
SilasX 14y ago
Worse, rats are at least as capable of training and intelligent behavior as dogs, making the differential treatment even harder to understand. One significant difference though, is the rate at which rats breed and how much more of a negative load they can place on the environment (and humans) when released into the wild.
gizmo686 14y ago
In this case, it might extend beyond rats being uglier. There is research supporting the idea that the human/dog relationship is a case of coevalution [1] [1]http://theacademy.typepad.com/files/coevolution03.pdf http://theacademy.typepad.com/files/coevolution03.pdf

papsosouid 14y ago

It is worth noting that the campaign to make spaying and neutering required has also done considerable harm. Puppies are often spayed and neutered as young as 6 weeks, despite the numerous health problems associated with the practice. Even the standard 6 months causes significant increases in a number of health problems. We need to stop punishing our pets based on the notion that if we don't get them fixed early, they will breed via magic or spores or something of the sort. You can in fact prevent your dog from having sex with other dogs.

jug6ernaut 14y ago
"they will breed via magic or spores or something of the sort." You obviously don't understand the problem, the problem isn't with people who are responsible. The problem is with people dump there dogs on the side of the road, the people who breed there dogs because it sounded cool, or to make money and end up not being able to sell them/give them away and end up dumping them somewhere. I have never heard of "significant increases in a number of health problems" in spaying/neutering at the sixth month mark, this may be different for some dogs but thats besides the point. Spaying/neutering is not bad, doing so indiscriminately(like everything) is bad. I dont know where your coming from calling it "punishing" the pets. Even with the surgery itself most dogs are up & running in 1-2 days. I would agree that spaying/neutering is not the complete answer. We should be punishing people who hurt there pets. You should not be able to have a pet if you have been proven not responsible to have one, you should be punished for doing harm to them. Pets arn't the problem, people are. Pet over population and other problems are simply the sad side effect of humanity.
- papsosouid 14y ago
  >You obviously don't understand the problem, the problem isn't with people who are responsible That indicates that I do understand the problem. Trying to push responsible owners to harm their pets because other people would let their dogs breed doesn't make any sense. >I have never heard of "significant increases in a number of health problems" in spaying/neutering at the sixth month mark That is why I am mentioning it, because so few people realize there is a problem. There has been a blind push to having all animals spayed/neutered before they are mature, without regards to the welfare of the animals. A list of some health problems associated with desexing: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/02/17/dangers-of-early-pet-spaying-or-neutering.aspx http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/201... >I dont know where your coming from calling it "punishing" the pets. I suspect you would have no confusion if it were your sex organs being removed.

michaelochurch 14y ago

Sorry to be "that guy" but "dog days" has nothing to do with a summertime culling of stray dogs. It has to do with the "Dog Star", Sirius: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_days http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_days This is a good article, and puppy mills (and the general unnaturalness of many dog breeds) are something more people should know about.

rohin 14y ago
Hey, you're right. We updated the article with your link and clarified the original source better. Thanks for pointing that out.

sharkweek 14y ago

Soap box time!! -- I walk dogs at a local shelter. There is not a common breed that doesn't find it's way through our doors at some point during the year. Sure, you might not end up with a "certified" purebred that's going to win a dog show (do you really want one of those for your family anyway?), but with almost certainty, I can guarantee that you can find what you're looking for at a local shelter. There is almost no reason to "buy" a dog -- the shelters are overcrowded, and the odds are good you can find what you want regarding breed/temperament if you're patient. Responsible shelters will find you the right dog if you tell them what you're looking for.

nollidge 14y ago
The Wisconsin Humane Society actually assesses their animals and assigns them a color based on personality and temperament so you can find what you're looking for in a pet. I have to imagine lots of other shelters do this also.
- sharkweek 14y ago
  Yup, ours has you take a short quiz that matches you with a "color" representing a type of dog. We'd assign new dogs one of these colors based off of about 10 criteria that we would evaluate over a 2-3 day waiting period before they were available for adoption; it really helped lower the return rate of the pups.
fps 14y ago
Shelters in Massachusetts are very picky about who they adopt out to. My wife and I looked for a younger large breed dog for nearly a year, and were turned away at every local shelter because our yard wasn't fenced and we both worked full time. A few years earlier, living in an apartment disqualified us from adopting a cat in Massachusetts. We drove 3 hours to adopt a cat from New York, and 2 hours to buy a dog in New Hampshire. Looking at petfinder for my area, the only dogs in shelters nearby are "imported" from Puerto Rico, and even those only go to homes that are worthy. I'm saddened by the conditions in shelters in other parts of the country, but I'm not going to fly to Alabama to find a dog.

bugschivers 14y ago

Funny this comes out, when only last week this research was released http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10498 http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=1049... "Neutering, and the age at which a dog is neutered, may affect the animal’s risk for developing certain cancers and joint diseases" It is also worth checking out Nathan Winograd, who is campaigning to make ALL shelters in America no-kill. It is worth looking at the statistics and reasons why shelters kill animals in their care, as most often, it is not simply that there are not enough homes. http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=10627 http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=10627

Falling3 14y ago

Very happy to see this on HN. I have never understood why people are willing to purchase dogs. Between the conditions of large-scale breeders and the amount of animals waiting in shelters, it's just absurd.

tjr 14y ago
Based on my own past anecdotal experiences, I favor adopting a dog from as young as possible (~8 weeks), to endeavor to have more influence over how it turns out. Most shelter dogs that I've encountered in my area are a year or more in age. Large-scale breeders and shelters are not the only two choices; I adopted my most recent dog from a family on a farm. Perhaps in an ideal world, no more dogs would be born until all existing dogs have a permanent home. But that seems unlikely to happen. If nobody adopts the new-born dogs, then would not they just end up in a shelter? If the blame belongs anywhere, it's on those who (at a large scale or at a small scale) breed their dogs, not on the people who adopt them.
- Falling3 14y ago
  I'm generally in favor of blaming the consumer. Markets respond to pressures. If there were no market for dogs (especially pure-bred dogs), we wouldn't see so many breeders out there. I'm not giving the breeders any sort of free pass, but I've got to ultimately lay the blame at the foot of the consumer. As for your own experiences, I can't speak to those. I've had good luck adopting from shelters even over a year. Old dogs can still learn new tricks. And when getting a young dog, there is no guarantee that you're not going to get one with any of various neuroses.
  - tjr 14y ago
    Either side (or both) could choose to stop the cycle. I did not summon my dog into existence; had there been no dogs available directly from (reputable) breeders, I would have either found an agreeable candidate at a shelter, or not adopted at all. Absurdly, tjr.
pageld 14y ago

dpatrick86 14y ago

Neutering in rats slightly increases lifespan of the animal. If this could be proven in dogs/cats, etc. as a more general biological phenomenon I think it'd be a great selling point for the procedure to new pet owners. Who doesn't want their new pet to live longer? http://www.ratbehavior.org/Neutering.htm http://www.ratbehavior.org/Neutering.htm

bugschivers 14y ago
https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/100301g.aspx https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/100301g.aspx "New research on the biology of aging in dogs suggests a link between shortened life expectancy and ovary removal." "The study, published in the December 2009 issue of the journal Aging Cell, found that Rottweilers that were spayed after they were 6 years old were 4.6 times as likely to reach 13 years of age as were Rottweilers that were spayed at a younger age."

Mc_Big_G 14y ago

I volunteer as a canine friend at the Berkeley East Bay Humane Society and it kills me to know that for every one of the dogs that they save (no kill policy), many other dogs who are just as sweet are put down. I've been volunteering there for a year and have never had a problem with a dog. Their population is almost exclusively pitbulls and they've all been great. I started freelancing a few months ago and my first client was http://www.wagaroo.com http://www.wagaroo.com The site is built with rails and ember.js. It's very MVP right now and any feedback is appreciated. They just got started and are only working with shelters and rescues for now. Their ultimate plan is to include responsible breeders and fight the puppy mills but they are taking their time in order gain understanding and to find the best way to make it happen.

aeturnum 14y ago

Anyone have numbers on the total number of pets in the US? Or on the number of natural deaths each year? It's hard to contextualize these numbers without understanding the overall population.

bugschivers 14y ago
http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=10627 http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=10627

__david__ 14y ago

> These breeders can raise their dogs in idyllic conditions of sunny farms, financed by the high premium placed on purebreds. That sounds logical, but from my talking to various breeders it just isn't reality. They claim to barely break even or even lose money, despite charging ~$1000 per dog. Most of them seem to have other income that supplements their hobby. Good breeders are motivated by love of the breed and not by money (which, to be fair the article pointed out).

kirpekar 14y ago

I've never really used their product, but the priceonomics blog is excellent. Complete, thorough, deeply researched and well written. Kudos!

bluedino 14y ago

I thought this article was going to be about the $52 billion a year Americans spend on pets.

rdl 14y ago

This is a great priceonomics post (your blog is amazing, second only to the old OKCupid blog!) I feel kind of bad for wanting a purebred cat now, vs. a shelter cat, but I'll probably do it anyway (the breeder is someone I know, and probably loses $1-2k on each kitten since it's just a hobby for a rich spouse, etc.) Russian Blues seem worth it. I'm considering taking an ex show cat instead of a kitten, though.