5 ms·

What exactly is illegal? Selling a machine with OS or not selling it without one? And as for the "this explains then why ThinkPads must come with Windows" - no

by rplnt 14y ago

What exactly is illegal? Selling a machine with OS or not selling it without one? And as for the "this explains then why ThinkPads must come with Windows" - no. It doesn't explain it. Secure boot has to be present on Windows certified machine, not the other way around. Lenovo can sell whatever they want (but apparently it's beneficial for them economically to only sell Windows machines). Also, certified machine has to have secure boot disable-able. So it's not about you not being able to use the machine with Linux, it's about not being able to use Secure Boot with Linux.

bad_user 14y ago
How about multi-boot? From my understanding that isn't going to be possible anymore.
- rplnt 14y ago
  It is possible with disabled secure boot. Windows 8 doesn't need Secure Boot or even UEFI to work. It's only about the "Certified" sticker. And theoretically, Grub (or something) can have the key signed.
  - BMarkmann 14y ago
    (Asking out of ignorance...) Signed by whom? Who are the trusted CAs for secure boot? Can you import an arbitrary certificate as trusted?
    - jeltz 14y ago
      Microsoft is the trusted CA.
  - easytiger 14y ago
    > It is possible with disabled secure boot. Windows 8 doesn't need Secure Boot or even UEFI to work. It's only about the "Certified" sticker. And you dont think that is a political choice?
  - sigkill 14y ago
    I think I'm largely out of touch with the average computer buyer of today but is it literally only about a sticker? What if instead of "Windows 8 Certified" the manufacturers put a "With Windows 8" and completely disregard the entire secureboot fiasco? Is there an option to NOT play Microsoft's game at all? I assume that MS would allow manufacturers to bypass the SecureBoot requirement if they don't want to avail of the "Windows 8 Certified" sticker. More importantly, how much would this sway a decision of a consumer (one place where I find 'consumer' better than 'customer') who sees two similar laptops with very similar prices except one say "With Windows 8" and the other says "Windows 8 Certified". Could the manufacturers not come up with their own marketing campaign or something like "OpenSource Initiative Certified" or something like that[obviously they can't use OSI's name but you get the idea].
    - rplnt 14y ago
      I'm not sure Microsoft would let you sell Windows on non-certified hardware. That is you would have to use non-oem license and it will be more expensive for you. So the prices probably wouldn't be similar.
muyuu 14y ago
Having firmware locked to only work under a given OS. It's pretty much a textbook definition of anticompetitive practice.
- rplnt 14y ago
  First of all, the firmware does not prevent you to use other OS. Only one function is locked to Windows and it seems Microsoft is open to allowing others to boot with it [sidenote]. Secondly, every single iPhone/iPad is locked to boot iOS; most of the phones with Android are locked as well. (And obviously Windows phones are locked too). And by locked I mean locked, not few clicks away from using the device as you wish (as is the case with notebooks and desktop computers). How come it's not rendered illegal? Sidenote: I agree with the fact that Microsoft shouldn't be the one deciding who gets the key and who doesn't. My opinion on this is that if everyone can't agree on one impartial organization then hardware manufacturers should be the one deciding it. Obviously it would be best if users could add their own keys.
  - muyuu 14y ago
    It would be suicidal to accept that, it would settle a tremendously dangerous precedent. This should never be accepted, full stop.
- cooldeal 14y ago
  Google ships Chromebooks with secure boot enabled too. Does it get a free pass because it's not a monopoly?
  - muyuu 14y ago
    Not sure why you seem to assume I give Google a free pass. Hope they get sued to high hell, but in the meanwhile I'm just not buying them as a computer that's useless outside of Google's cloud is also outside of my interests.
    - jsolson 14y ago
mimiflynn 14y ago
I think the issue is: to buy a Lenovo machine is to buy Windows. There is no other option but to have to pay for Windows with your machine. One can't just buy a laptop with nothing on it. This can be seen as unfair to the customer in many countries and therefore, illegal.
- Nux 14y ago
  Don't buy Lenovo, then. Places like e.g. http://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/laptop-computers/ http://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/laptop-computers/ sell custom laptops without the Windows tax.
- cooldeal 14y ago
  Can I buy a Toyota car without the Michelin tires they bundle and get a discount? I want to install my custom tires and have no need for the tires they bundle.
  - muyuu 14y ago
    If they put a mechanism to specifically total the car if you try to use any other brand, I'd say they would be getting sued before you can say "anti-trust".
    - recoiledsnake 14y ago
      Trying to boot Linux does not "total" the computer. Turn it off , and you can boot whatever you want. The analogy is sorely broken.
      - muyuu 14y ago
        Trying to install it can total the computer, esp. if you are unaware of the relatively new locking measures.
  - DigitalJack 14y ago
    Of course you can. You just haggle with the dealer.
phowat 14y ago
What is illegal is not selling a computer without an operating system. From what I understand, brazilian law considers the PC and OS two different products and it is illegal for a company to only sell you one product if you also buy another one tied together. In my company, we buy all our servers and workstations from Dell and it never comes with a Windows license unless you explicitly request to the sales person. Although, I remember at least one case where we bought a laptop and the seller said it would come with the most basic windows 7 version because it was free for that particular laptop model. I don't know what would have happened if we insisted in having it shipped without it.
- cooldeal 14y ago
  >What is illegal is not selling a computer without an operating system Does that apply to Macs, Chromebooks, iPads too?
  - phowat 14y ago
    IANAL, but I think the key difference is that these operating systems are not sold as a standalone component you can buy and install on any pc you like. That's why it applies to a Windows license and not to a Mac OS license for example.
    - nolok 14y ago
      If it's like France; it's technically illegal too, apple just never has been in front of a judge about it (and when they do, I guess they will argue that they sell the disk and not the license to use the OS).
      - phowat 14y ago
        I didn't think of that, I agree this is more likely the explanation.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
nolok 14y ago
Responding from a French point of view, so that might not match Brazil (but does match Germany): you can not tie a material product with an immaterial one, if you do not also sell the material product as a stand alone. You cannot sell a car with an insurance if you don't sell the car alone. You cannot sell a phone with a plan if you don't sell the phone alone (see: iPhone 1 release in Europe). You cannot sell a computer with an OS license if you don't sell the computer alone (you're not buying the disk, but the license to use the software on it).
- phowat 14y ago
  Interesting, I know that in Brazil the same law applies even if both products are immaterial. For example, it was common for nightclubs here to give you an option of charging less (or nothing at all) for the entrance into the nightclub if you spent a certain amount of money in drinks or whatever else they sold inside. This was also prohibited by the same law since it was tying two separate "products". Wikipedia article (in portuguese) on this law cites that even ( http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venda_casada http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venda_casada ).
  - csense 14y ago
    Drinks seem like a material product to me, they're a consumable physical liquid. The right to enter the nightclub is an immaterial good, along with software or cellphone service. Actually this is a really well-thought-out law.
- demallien 14y ago
  You cannot sell a computer with an OS license if you don't sell the computer alone (you're not buying the disk, but the license to use the software on it). Sure you can. I bought a very nice MacBook Air in Paris a couple of months back - and you most definitely can't buy a MacBook Air without OS X.
  - nolok 14y ago
    The fact that something is illegal doesn't mean people are never doing it; it only means they lose when they go to court. You cannot drive over the speed limit in France, but "sure you can, I just did this morning". There are plenty of court cases, all won by the buyers, where the complaint was that the computer was sold with a windows license, and couldn't be bought without.

by rplnt 14y ago

bad_user 14y ago

How about multi-boot? From my understanding that isn't going to be possible anymore.

rplnt 14y ago
It is possible with disabled secure boot. Windows 8 doesn't need Secure Boot or even UEFI to work. It's only about the "Certified" sticker. And theoretically, Grub (or something) can have the key signed.
- BMarkmann 14y ago
  (Asking out of ignorance...) Signed by whom? Who are the trusted CAs for secure boot? Can you import an arbitrary certificate as trusted?
  - jeltz 14y ago
    Microsoft is the trusted CA.
- easytiger 14y ago
  > It is possible with disabled secure boot. Windows 8 doesn't need Secure Boot or even UEFI to work. It's only about the "Certified" sticker. And you dont think that is a political choice?
- sigkill 14y ago
  I think I'm largely out of touch with the average computer buyer of today but is it literally only about a sticker? What if instead of "Windows 8 Certified" the manufacturers put a "With Windows 8" and completely disregard the entire secureboot fiasco? Is there an option to NOT play Microsoft's game at all? I assume that MS would allow manufacturers to bypass the SecureBoot requirement if they don't want to avail of the "Windows 8 Certified" sticker. More importantly, how much would this sway a decision of a consumer (one place where I find 'consumer' better than 'customer') who sees two similar laptops with very similar prices except one say "With Windows 8" and the other says "Windows 8 Certified". Could the manufacturers not come up with their own marketing campaign or something like "OpenSource Initiative Certified" or something like that[obviously they can't use OSI's name but you get the idea].
  - rplnt 14y ago
    I'm not sure Microsoft would let you sell Windows on non-certified hardware. That is you would have to use non-oem license and it will be more expensive for you. So the prices probably wouldn't be similar.

muyuu 14y ago

Having firmware locked to only work under a given OS. It's pretty much a textbook definition of anticompetitive practice.

rplnt 14y ago
First of all, the firmware does not prevent you to use other OS. Only one function is locked to Windows and it seems Microsoft is open to allowing others to boot with it [sidenote]. Secondly, every single iPhone/iPad is locked to boot iOS; most of the phones with Android are locked as well. (And obviously Windows phones are locked too). And by locked I mean locked, not few clicks away from using the device as you wish (as is the case with notebooks and desktop computers). How come it's not rendered illegal? Sidenote: I agree with the fact that Microsoft shouldn't be the one deciding who gets the key and who doesn't. My opinion on this is that if everyone can't agree on one impartial organization then hardware manufacturers should be the one deciding it. Obviously it would be best if users could add their own keys.
- muyuu 14y ago
  It would be suicidal to accept that, it would settle a tremendously dangerous precedent. This should never be accepted, full stop.
cooldeal 14y ago
Google ships Chromebooks with secure boot enabled too. Does it get a free pass because it's not a monopoly?
- muyuu 14y ago
  Not sure why you seem to assume I give Google a free pass. Hope they get sued to high hell, but in the meanwhile I'm just not buying them as a computer that's useless outside of Google's cloud is also outside of my interests.
  - jsolson 14y ago

mimiflynn 14y ago

I think the issue is: to buy a Lenovo machine is to buy Windows. There is no other option but to have to pay for Windows with your machine. One can't just buy a laptop with nothing on it. This can be seen as unfair to the customer in many countries and therefore, illegal.

Nux 14y ago
Don't buy Lenovo, then. Places like e.g. http://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/laptop-computers/ http://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/laptop-computers/ sell custom laptops without the Windows tax.
cooldeal 14y ago
Can I buy a Toyota car without the Michelin tires they bundle and get a discount? I want to install my custom tires and have no need for the tires they bundle.
- muyuu 14y ago
  If they put a mechanism to specifically total the car if you try to use any other brand, I'd say they would be getting sued before you can say "anti-trust".
  - recoiledsnake 14y ago
    Trying to boot Linux does not "total" the computer. Turn it off , and you can boot whatever you want. The analogy is sorely broken.
    - muyuu 14y ago
      Trying to install it can total the computer, esp. if you are unaware of the relatively new locking measures.
- DigitalJack 14y ago
  Of course you can. You just haggle with the dealer.

phowat 14y ago

What is illegal is not selling a computer without an operating system. From what I understand, brazilian law considers the PC and OS two different products and it is illegal for a company to only sell you one product if you also buy another one tied together. In my company, we buy all our servers and workstations from Dell and it never comes with a Windows license unless you explicitly request to the sales person. Although, I remember at least one case where we bought a laptop and the seller said it would come with the most basic windows 7 version because it was free for that particular laptop model. I don't know what would have happened if we insisted in having it shipped without it.

cooldeal 14y ago
>What is illegal is not selling a computer without an operating system Does that apply to Macs, Chromebooks, iPads too?
- phowat 14y ago
  IANAL, but I think the key difference is that these operating systems are not sold as a standalone component you can buy and install on any pc you like. That's why it applies to a Windows license and not to a Mac OS license for example.
  - nolok 14y ago
    If it's like France; it's technically illegal too, apple just never has been in front of a judge about it (and when they do, I guess they will argue that they sell the disk and not the license to use the OS).
    - phowat 14y ago
      I didn't think of that, I agree this is more likely the explanation.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

nolok 14y ago

Responding from a French point of view, so that might not match Brazil (but does match Germany): you can not tie a material product with an immaterial one, if you do not also sell the material product as a stand alone. You cannot sell a car with an insurance if you don't sell the car alone. You cannot sell a phone with a plan if you don't sell the phone alone (see: iPhone 1 release in Europe). You cannot sell a computer with an OS license if you don't sell the computer alone (you're not buying the disk, but the license to use the software on it).

phowat 14y ago
Interesting, I know that in Brazil the same law applies even if both products are immaterial. For example, it was common for nightclubs here to give you an option of charging less (or nothing at all) for the entrance into the nightclub if you spent a certain amount of money in drinks or whatever else they sold inside. This was also prohibited by the same law since it was tying two separate "products". Wikipedia article (in portuguese) on this law cites that even ( http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venda_casada http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venda_casada ).
- csense 14y ago
  Drinks seem like a material product to me, they're a consumable physical liquid. The right to enter the nightclub is an immaterial good, along with software or cellphone service. Actually this is a really well-thought-out law.
demallien 14y ago
You cannot sell a computer with an OS license if you don't sell the computer alone (you're not buying the disk, but the license to use the software on it). Sure you can. I bought a very nice MacBook Air in Paris a couple of months back - and you most definitely can't buy a MacBook Air without OS X.
- nolok 14y ago
  The fact that something is illegal doesn't mean people are never doing it; it only means they lose when they go to court. You cannot drive over the speed limit in France, but "sure you can, I just did this morning". There are plenty of court cases, all won by the buyers, where the complaint was that the computer was sold with a windows license, and couldn't be bought without.