7 ms·

I always thought that the secure boot is a very, very, very bad idea. In fact the whole UEFI in general I think it is a clusterfuck of mishmashed random ideas,

by speeder 14y ago

I always thought that the secure boot is a very, very, very bad idea. In fact the whole UEFI in general I think it is a clusterfuck of mishmashed random ideas, some good, many bad. What I intend to do personally, is attempt to don't use secure boot. And this all might explain the e-mail I got from Lenovo 10 minutes ago... I asked them for a non-Windows machine. They replied saying that they from now on only manufacture machines with Windows. At first I was: "wtf? why?" now this article remembered me that now we have firmware tied to Microsoft, and this explains then why ThinkPads must come with Windows. Here in Brazil this is illegal, and Lenovo for example got sued (and lost) once. I hope a rain of lawsuits make this shit stop.

mtgx 14y ago
I think the Germans were pretty concerned about this, too. I could definitely see a lawsuit against them there, considering how "weird" (but usually right) Germany is when it comes to things like these.
- espadrine 14y ago
  I'd love the European Commission to chime in, too.
  - easytiger 14y ago
    This is definitely a competition issue
  - mjg59 14y ago
    They did - http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?reference=E-2012-011084&language=EN http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?referen...
rplnt 14y ago
What exactly is illegal? Selling a machine with OS or not selling it without one? And as for the "this explains then why ThinkPads must come with Windows" - no. It doesn't explain it. Secure boot has to be present on Windows certified machine, not the other way around. Lenovo can sell whatever they want (but apparently it's beneficial for them economically to only sell Windows machines). Also, certified machine has to have secure boot disable-able. So it's not about you not being able to use the machine with Linux, it's about not being able to use Secure Boot with Linux.
- bad_user 14y ago
  How about multi-boot? From my understanding that isn't going to be possible anymore.
  - rplnt 14y ago
    It is possible with disabled secure boot. Windows 8 doesn't need Secure Boot or even UEFI to work. It's only about the "Certified" sticker. And theoretically, Grub (or something) can have the key signed.
    - BMarkmann 14y ago
      (Asking out of ignorance...) Signed by whom? Who are the trusted CAs for secure boot? Can you import an arbitrary certificate as trusted?
      - jeltz 14y ago
        Microsoft is the trusted CA.
    - easytiger 14y ago
      > It is possible with disabled secure boot. Windows 8 doesn't need Secure Boot or even UEFI to work. It's only about the "Certified" sticker. And you dont think that is a political choice?
    - sigkill 14y ago
      I think I'm largely out of touch with the average computer buyer of today but is it literally only about a sticker? What if instead of "Windows 8 Certified" the manufacturers put a "With Windows 8" and completely disregard the entire secureboot fiasco? Is there an option to NOT play Microsoft's game at all? I assume that MS would allow manufacturers to bypass the SecureBoot requirement if they don't want to avail of the "Windows 8 Certified" sticker. More importantly, how much would this sway a decision of a consumer (one place where I find 'consumer' better than 'customer') who sees two similar laptops with very similar prices except one say "With Windows 8" and the other says "Windows 8 Certified". Could the manufacturers not come up with their own marketing campaign or something like "OpenSource Initiative Certified" or something like that[obviously they can't use OSI's name but you get the idea].
TheAnimus 14y ago
I just bought a UEFI laptop in Vietnam that was Lenovo brand, it came unlicensed with windows, but fully supports secure boot in to it. Are you sure this isn't just a regional sales thing, not selling a Windows Free version in that teritory?
- krenel 14y ago
  As rplnt as said: > but apparently it's beneficial for them economically to only sell Windows machines Maybe in Vietnam it happens just the opposite. It's easy to sell a computer _without_ Windows that with it. I don't get why the companies cannot sell "empty" laptops without OS installed, thought.
  - TheAnimus 14y ago
    even that one had Free DOS installed. Handy for a quick memory test
  - cooldeal 14y ago
    >Maybe in Vietnam it happens just the opposite. It's easy to sell a computer _without_ Windows that with it That is because most of the PCs end up being installed with pirated Windows by the local tech guru.
    - TheAnimus 14y ago
      >That is because most of the PCs end up being installed with pirated Windows by the local tech guru. My Vietnamese friend had to explain that the staff in the shop expected to earn $5 installing the pirated windows on it... They where not best pleased that I intended to do it myself (with a licensed copy obviously!)
cooldeal 14y ago
>In fact the whole UEFI in general I think it is a clusterfuck of mishmashed random ideas, some good, many bad. Care to explain why or how, instead of just throwing a general statement around?
- RexRollman 14y ago
  Because UEFI is overly complicated and more akin to a mini-OS. All most people really want is for the firmware to set up the hardware and then hand over to the bootloader.
  - recoiledsnake 14y ago
    Isn't that what is already does? In fact it is so fast handing control to the OS that in Windows 8 Microsoft had to add an option to restart into UEFI settings mode. Which features are unneeded in your opinion?
    - easytiger 14y ago
      Secure Boot.
      - Locke1689 14y ago
        Well, duh. You aren't responsible for users getting rootkits installed on their computer. Obviously you would find it useless.
        taproot 14y ago
        Sounds more like a user education problem to me. We don't let people drive without a license I don't see why we should worry about the people who use computers and don't bother to read up and understand what they're using. In before "everyone should be able to use computers and they should just work" - I agree, it should be like this; however, the hardware, software, and usability has just never been at that level - and won't be for some time. Thus I dislike that argument. I do understand this means we should be making things better as we go, I just don't see how this is one of those things, nor do I see how proper education should be lacking for the time being. To put that in the car analogy: Should we let people drive around because they need to get to work today but don't have time to sit the license right now? Disclaimer: Opinion, and I'm a huge usability fan and hope one day things do "just work", I'm just also a realist and don't see the logic behind letting people use something before they or the thing is ready for them. Edit: Just realised I went on a bit of a mad rant and kind of went a bit off topic. Apologies.
josefresco 14y ago
"I hope a rain of lawsuits make this shit stop." Is that really the appropriate response to a company that basically made a choice to not offer the type of product you are seeking? Buy what you want from someone else ... problem solved. When you can't buy from someone else...then there's a problem.
recoiledsnake 14y ago
In Brazil or anywhere, can you buy a car with the default sound system ripped out and get a refund for it? What about without the default tires, seats or even the engine?
- jsight 14y ago
  The default tires and default sound system have residual value when ripped out. I am sure that the dealer would be happy to give you some fraction of their worth and then provide you the car without them. Or you could sell them yourself. Windows, OTOH, is something that you pay for, but generally comes in an OEM license. This license is non-transferable in most cases.
  - mauvehaus 14y ago
    I'm not sure the dealer would be willing to refund you for the factory sound system because the residual value of the factory sound system is almost certainly miniscule compared to the cost of labor involved in removing it. Why is the residual value so small? Lack of standardization. A lot of automakers use their own mounting system for the head unit, which means if I bought a Lexus and asked the dealer to take out the head unit, the dealer wouldn't be able to turn around and sell it to somebody who wanted a better unit in their Ford. It goes beyond the mounting system though. A lot of automakers have their own plug and wiring standards too. If you buy an aftermarket head unit, you usually get a pigtail that plugs into it with unterminated wires on the other side. Then you buy a wiring harness kit specific to your car which has unterminated wires running into a plug that connects to the vehicle harness. Soldering ensues (or wire nuts or electrical tape for the lazy...). Since the aftermarket does have a strong incentive to standardize, the wires on the pigtail that come with the head unit match the colors of the wires in the harness kit, which actually make the process pretty straightforward if you're even halfway handy. What all of that means is that the unit out of your hypothetical Lexus (which doesn't come with a pigtail with unterminated wires) is going to be hell to get working in somebody else's Ford. Between the physical and electrical incompatibility, the residual value of a head unit has to be pretty close to zero for anybody who doesn't own basically the same car.
- 14y ago

by speeder 14y ago

mtgx 14y ago

I think the Germans were pretty concerned about this, too. I could definitely see a lawsuit against them there, considering how "weird" (but usually right) Germany is when it comes to things like these.

espadrine 14y ago
I'd love the European Commission to chime in, too.
- easytiger 14y ago
  This is definitely a competition issue
- mjg59 14y ago
  They did - http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?reference=E-2012-011084&language=EN http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?referen...

rplnt 14y ago

What exactly is illegal? Selling a machine with OS or not selling it without one? And as for the "this explains then why ThinkPads must come with Windows" - no. It doesn't explain it. Secure boot has to be present on Windows certified machine, not the other way around. Lenovo can sell whatever they want (but apparently it's beneficial for them economically to only sell Windows machines). Also, certified machine has to have secure boot disable-able. So it's not about you not being able to use the machine with Linux, it's about not being able to use Secure Boot with Linux.

bad_user 14y ago
How about multi-boot? From my understanding that isn't going to be possible anymore.
- rplnt 14y ago
  It is possible with disabled secure boot. Windows 8 doesn't need Secure Boot or even UEFI to work. It's only about the "Certified" sticker. And theoretically, Grub (or something) can have the key signed.
  - BMarkmann 14y ago
    (Asking out of ignorance...) Signed by whom? Who are the trusted CAs for secure boot? Can you import an arbitrary certificate as trusted?
    - jeltz 14y ago
      Microsoft is the trusted CA.
  - easytiger 14y ago
    > It is possible with disabled secure boot. Windows 8 doesn't need Secure Boot or even UEFI to work. It's only about the "Certified" sticker. And you dont think that is a political choice?
  - sigkill 14y ago
    I think I'm largely out of touch with the average computer buyer of today but is it literally only about a sticker? What if instead of "Windows 8 Certified" the manufacturers put a "With Windows 8" and completely disregard the entire secureboot fiasco? Is there an option to NOT play Microsoft's game at all? I assume that MS would allow manufacturers to bypass the SecureBoot requirement if they don't want to avail of the "Windows 8 Certified" sticker. More importantly, how much would this sway a decision of a consumer (one place where I find 'consumer' better than 'customer') who sees two similar laptops with very similar prices except one say "With Windows 8" and the other says "Windows 8 Certified". Could the manufacturers not come up with their own marketing campaign or something like "OpenSource Initiative Certified" or something like that[obviously they can't use OSI's name but you get the idea].

TheAnimus 14y ago

I just bought a UEFI laptop in Vietnam that was Lenovo brand, it came unlicensed with windows, but fully supports secure boot in to it. Are you sure this isn't just a regional sales thing, not selling a Windows Free version in that teritory?

krenel 14y ago
As rplnt as said: > but apparently it's beneficial for them economically to only sell Windows machines Maybe in Vietnam it happens just the opposite. It's easy to sell a computer _without_ Windows that with it. I don't get why the companies cannot sell "empty" laptops without OS installed, thought.
- TheAnimus 14y ago
  even that one had Free DOS installed. Handy for a quick memory test
- cooldeal 14y ago
  >Maybe in Vietnam it happens just the opposite. It's easy to sell a computer _without_ Windows that with it That is because most of the PCs end up being installed with pirated Windows by the local tech guru.
  - TheAnimus 14y ago
    >That is because most of the PCs end up being installed with pirated Windows by the local tech guru. My Vietnamese friend had to explain that the staff in the shop expected to earn $5 installing the pirated windows on it... They where not best pleased that I intended to do it myself (with a licensed copy obviously!)

cooldeal 14y ago

>In fact the whole UEFI in general I think it is a clusterfuck of mishmashed random ideas, some good, many bad. Care to explain why or how, instead of just throwing a general statement around?

RexRollman 14y ago
Because UEFI is overly complicated and more akin to a mini-OS. All most people really want is for the firmware to set up the hardware and then hand over to the bootloader.
- recoiledsnake 14y ago
  Isn't that what is already does? In fact it is so fast handing control to the OS that in Windows 8 Microsoft had to add an option to restart into UEFI settings mode. Which features are unneeded in your opinion?
  - easytiger 14y ago
    Secure Boot.
    - Locke1689 14y ago
      Well, duh. You aren't responsible for users getting rootkits installed on their computer. Obviously you would find it useless.
      - taproot 14y ago
        Sounds more like a user education problem to me. We don't let people drive without a license I don't see why we should worry about the people who use computers and don't bother to read up and understand what they're using. In before "everyone should be able to use computers and they should just work" - I agree, it should be like this; however, the hardware, software, and usability has just never been at that level - and won't be for some time. Thus I dislike that argument. I do understand this means we should be making things better as we go, I just don't see how this is one of those things, nor do I see how proper education should be lacking for the time being. To put that in the car analogy: Should we let people drive around because they need to get to work today but don't have time to sit the license right now? Disclaimer: Opinion, and I'm a huge usability fan and hope one day things do "just work", I'm just also a realist and don't see the logic behind letting people use something before they or the thing is ready for them. Edit: Just realised I went on a bit of a mad rant and kind of went a bit off topic. Apologies.

josefresco 14y ago

"I hope a rain of lawsuits make this shit stop." Is that really the appropriate response to a company that basically made a choice to not offer the type of product you are seeking? Buy what you want from someone else ... problem solved. When you can't buy from someone else...then there's a problem.

recoiledsnake 14y ago

In Brazil or anywhere, can you buy a car with the default sound system ripped out and get a refund for it? What about without the default tires, seats or even the engine?

jsight 14y ago
The default tires and default sound system have residual value when ripped out. I am sure that the dealer would be happy to give you some fraction of their worth and then provide you the car without them. Or you could sell them yourself. Windows, OTOH, is something that you pay for, but generally comes in an OEM license. This license is non-transferable in most cases.
- mauvehaus 14y ago
  I'm not sure the dealer would be willing to refund you for the factory sound system because the residual value of the factory sound system is almost certainly miniscule compared to the cost of labor involved in removing it. Why is the residual value so small? Lack of standardization. A lot of automakers use their own mounting system for the head unit, which means if I bought a Lexus and asked the dealer to take out the head unit, the dealer wouldn't be able to turn around and sell it to somebody who wanted a better unit in their Ford. It goes beyond the mounting system though. A lot of automakers have their own plug and wiring standards too. If you buy an aftermarket head unit, you usually get a pigtail that plugs into it with unterminated wires on the other side. Then you buy a wiring harness kit specific to your car which has unterminated wires running into a plug that connects to the vehicle harness. Soldering ensues (or wire nuts or electrical tape for the lazy...). Since the aftermarket does have a strong incentive to standardize, the wires on the pigtail that come with the head unit match the colors of the wires in the harness kit, which actually make the process pretty straightforward if you're even halfway handy. What all of that means is that the unit out of your hypothetical Lexus (which doesn't come with a pigtail with unterminated wires) is going to be hell to get working in somebody else's Ford. Between the physical and electrical incompatibility, the residual value of a head unit has to be pretty close to zero for anybody who doesn't own basically the same car.
14y ago