5 ms·

The US Dollar is a make-believe currency. It only ever has as much value as we believe it has.

by Aqueous 14y ago

cma 14y ago
Taxes are paid in dollars. You can see dollars as some sort of collective hallucination if you want, but that fact ultimately keeps them grounded.
- paulgb 14y ago
  Exactly. Money may be make believe, but the bars you'll be behind if you evade taxes are real.
  - shredfvz 14y ago
    Yeah, teh USD wins ... because "OR ELSE" end of story, right?
- mrb 14y ago
  I think the parent's point stands: the dollar (or any currency for that matter) is artificial. The government merely "declares" it has value, hence making it "make-believe". In the hypothetical scenario where it ends up suffering from hyperinflation, it would lose all its make-believe value, just the way the Zimbabwean dollar died.
  - camus 14y ago
    Can people pay there taxes in bitcoins ? ( it's a question).
    - napoleond 14y ago
      Of course not. I couldn't use USD to pay my taxes either, because I'm Canadian. I could earn money in any currency I choose, including BTC, and exchange them for any other currency I choose, including USD or CAD. Why does the currency any given person pays their taxes in matter?
      - URSpider94 14y ago
        Not sure if this is true in Canada, but in the US at least, employers are required to pay you in USD (at least up to the minimum wage). And, if someone offers to pay you in CND for your work in Canada, you can't refuse them, even if you'd rather be paid in BTC. Sure, you can exchange USD, CND and BTC as much as you wish, but the point is that, within Canada, you can be certain that you can always pay and be paid in CND -- which can't be said for any other currency.
        napoleond 14y ago
        My business can accept any currency I want it to. It's true that if I had employees I would have to pay them in local currency. I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to BTC's "relevance" as a currency--it doesn't need the support of a nation-state for it to be a valuable medium of exchange.
      - celticninja 14y ago
        indirectly you could, if the IRS partnered with BitPay you could pay in BTC and BitPay would send the IRS USD to their bank account. You would still pay in BTC but they get paid in USD.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  - grey-area 14y ago
    And if the perceived value of Bitcoin fluctuated wildly due to market speculation, would it lose its make-believe value too?
    - mrb 14y ago
      All currencies, digital or not, big or small, continuously lose and gain "make-believe" value in largely unpredictible ways (see forex markets). Some are stable (EUR). Some are volatile (BTC). Some die (German Papiermark, Zimbabwean dollar). Some live longer (GBP, JPY). Some lost value in the immediate past (USD). Some gained value in the immediate past (BTC).
URSpider94 14y ago
This is a specious argument. Yes, most, if not all national currencies are "fiat currencies" with no inherent value. Then again, having a hard currency backed in gold only gives it value if you believe in the inherent value of a shiny yellow, conductive, malleable metallic element. What gives the USD value is that the law of the land mandates that it is "legal tender for all debts public and private", meaning that all governments and businesses (and individuals, when it comes to receiving salaries, see 29 CFR 531.34) can not refuse to be paid in dollars. [NOTE: This means dollars, not dollar bills -- you can refuse to accept cash money]. Thus, if you try to pay me in Bitcoins in return for mowing your lawn, I can laugh in your face, but I can't refuse your dollars and demand that you pay me in Bitcoin. Therein lies the value of the dollar, or of any national currency -- I can always ensure that I can operate within my local economy without incurring exchange rate risk or exchange arbitrage, because I can be 100% certain that I can buy the things that I want in dollars, and receive payment for my work in dollars as well. As long as it remains illegal to pay salaries in Bitcoin, most consumer transactions will involve an exchange, which will add overhead.
- shredfvz 14y ago
  Firstly, USD, being the world reserve currency, has value because of its current ubiquity in international trade, NOT because of its legal tender status in America. FYI: "Legal tender is currency that cannot legally be refused in payment of debt. Private businesses may adopt their own policies on whether or not to accept cash as long it doesn't violate state law." So when you say this: "all governments and businesses can not refuse to be paid in dollars" You've misinterpretted the law. And when you say this: "Thus, if you try to pay me in Bitcoins in return for mowing your lawn, I can laugh in your face, but I can't refuse your dollars and demand that you pay me in Bitcoin." head asplode! This is just utterly mind boggling. In what world does a service provider HAVE to accept whatever payment terms the customer demands of him, even if the customer demands something the service provider never agreed to in the first place? If I'm a business, and I tell you I'll provide X service for you, but only if you agree to pay me in BTC, and then you turn around after I'm done and say "HAHA J/K LOL here's some USD", I have every right to tell YOU to fuck right off. "as long as it remains illegal to pay salaries in Bitcoin" Talk about painful levels of ignorance. I would love to see you try to substantiate this utter falsehood. "because I can be 100% certain that I can buy the things that I want in dollars" Let's revisit this sentiment in 25 years.

The US Dollar is a make-believe currency. It only ever has as much value as we believe it has.

by Aqueous 14y ago

The US Dollar is a make-believe currency. It only ever has as much value as we believe it has.

cma 14y ago

Taxes are paid in dollars. You can see dollars as some sort of collective hallucination if you want, but that fact ultimately keeps them grounded.

paulgb 14y ago
Exactly. Money may be make believe, but the bars you'll be behind if you evade taxes are real.
- shredfvz 14y ago
  Yeah, teh USD wins ... because "OR ELSE" end of story, right?
mrb 14y ago
I think the parent's point stands: the dollar (or any currency for that matter) is artificial. The government merely "declares" it has value, hence making it "make-believe". In the hypothetical scenario where it ends up suffering from hyperinflation, it would lose all its make-believe value, just the way the Zimbabwean dollar died.
- camus 14y ago
  Can people pay there taxes in bitcoins ? ( it's a question).
  - napoleond 14y ago
    Of course not. I couldn't use USD to pay my taxes either, because I'm Canadian. I could earn money in any currency I choose, including BTC, and exchange them for any other currency I choose, including USD or CAD. Why does the currency any given person pays their taxes in matter?
    - URSpider94 14y ago
      Not sure if this is true in Canada, but in the US at least, employers are required to pay you in USD (at least up to the minimum wage). And, if someone offers to pay you in CND for your work in Canada, you can't refuse them, even if you'd rather be paid in BTC. Sure, you can exchange USD, CND and BTC as much as you wish, but the point is that, within Canada, you can be certain that you can always pay and be paid in CND -- which can't be said for any other currency.
      - napoleond 14y ago
        My business can accept any currency I want it to. It's true that if I had employees I would have to pay them in local currency. I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to BTC's "relevance" as a currency--it doesn't need the support of a nation-state for it to be a valuable medium of exchange.
    - celticninja 14y ago
      indirectly you could, if the IRS partnered with BitPay you could pay in BTC and BitPay would send the IRS USD to their bank account. You would still pay in BTC but they get paid in USD.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- grey-area 14y ago
  And if the perceived value of Bitcoin fluctuated wildly due to market speculation, would it lose its make-believe value too?
  - mrb 14y ago
    All currencies, digital or not, big or small, continuously lose and gain "make-believe" value in largely unpredictible ways (see forex markets). Some are stable (EUR). Some are volatile (BTC). Some die (German Papiermark, Zimbabwean dollar). Some live longer (GBP, JPY). Some lost value in the immediate past (USD). Some gained value in the immediate past (BTC).

URSpider94 14y ago

This is a specious argument. Yes, most, if not all national currencies are "fiat currencies" with no inherent value. Then again, having a hard currency backed in gold only gives it value if you believe in the inherent value of a shiny yellow, conductive, malleable metallic element. What gives the USD value is that the law of the land mandates that it is "legal tender for all debts public and private", meaning that all governments and businesses (and individuals, when it comes to receiving salaries, see 29 CFR 531.34) can not refuse to be paid in dollars. [NOTE: This means dollars, not dollar bills -- you can refuse to accept cash money]. Thus, if you try to pay me in Bitcoins in return for mowing your lawn, I can laugh in your face, but I can't refuse your dollars and demand that you pay me in Bitcoin. Therein lies the value of the dollar, or of any national currency -- I can always ensure that I can operate within my local economy without incurring exchange rate risk or exchange arbitrage, because I can be 100% certain that I can buy the things that I want in dollars, and receive payment for my work in dollars as well. As long as it remains illegal to pay salaries in Bitcoin, most consumer transactions will involve an exchange, which will add overhead.

shredfvz 14y ago
Firstly, USD, being the world reserve currency, has value because of its current ubiquity in international trade, NOT because of its legal tender status in America. FYI: "Legal tender is currency that cannot legally be refused in payment of debt. Private businesses may adopt their own policies on whether or not to accept cash as long it doesn't violate state law." So when you say this: "all governments and businesses can not refuse to be paid in dollars" You've misinterpretted the law. And when you say this: "Thus, if you try to pay me in Bitcoins in return for mowing your lawn, I can laugh in your face, but I can't refuse your dollars and demand that you pay me in Bitcoin." head asplode! This is just utterly mind boggling. In what world does a service provider HAVE to accept whatever payment terms the customer demands of him, even if the customer demands something the service provider never agreed to in the first place? If I'm a business, and I tell you I'll provide X service for you, but only if you agree to pay me in BTC, and then you turn around after I'm done and say "HAHA J/K LOL here's some USD", I have every right to tell YOU to fuck right off. "as long as it remains illegal to pay salaries in Bitcoin" Talk about painful levels of ignorance. I would love to see you try to substantiate this utter falsehood. "because I can be 100% certain that I can buy the things that I want in dollars" Let's revisit this sentiment in 25 years.