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I feel like there are more problems at PayPal than just frozen accounts. The inherent issues I have with PayPal is a: they're a middleman and bump up prices. an

I feel like there are more problems at PayPal than just frozen accounts. The inherent issues I have with PayPal is a: they're a middleman and bump up prices. and b: they facilitate chargebacks which lead to an ever increase amount of fraud. More fraud equals more cost. As the conventional alternatives continue to grow they'll face more and more fraud. Bitcoin has no chargeback fraud. It never will.

slinkyavenger 14y ago
Bitcoin fluctuates wildly in value. Bitcoin takes quite a while for a transaction to happen, and there are waits and fees involved in exchanging money from USD and back to USD. Bitcoin doesn't allow chargebacks, an important consumer protection mechanism, therefore helping to perpetuate fraud. No one wants to buy anything with bitcon, and no one wants to go through the trouble of selling anything with bitcoin.
- discountgenius 14y ago
  > Bitcoin doesn't allow chargebacks, an important consumer protection mechanism, therefore helping to perpetuate fraud. Chargebacks enable WAY more fraud than they stop.
  - ScottWhigham 14y ago
    Downvoted for a blanket statement with no facts/source to back it up
- lectrick 14y ago
  > Bitcoin fluctuates wildly in value. It's been just growing steadily lately, but a seller can always convert to their local currency on the spot using a BTC payment processor. > Bitcoin takes quite a while for a transaction to happen 100% false. Every time I've used it, transactions take less than a second. Stop spreading FUD aka bullshit. > and there are waits and fees involved in exchanging money from USD and back to USD Yep... for now. I think the point is that at some point you won't have all your monetary holdings as USD. > Bitcoin doesn't allow chargebacks, an important consumer protection mechanism, therefore helping to perpetuate fraud. That's a funny thing to say, given that chargebacks are the very source of fraud these days. BTC is attractive to merchants precisely because you can't chargeback. If you have a problem with a merchant, bitch about them elsewhere and their reputation will suffer.
  - betterunix 14y ago
    "Every time I've used it, transactions take less than a second" Are you bothering to wait for confirmations? Last I checked, waiting for confirmation of a transaction was a 10 to 30 minute process.
  - slinkyavenger 14y ago
    Growing steadily? Bitcoin value is wildly speculative, since it's only backed up by make-work, illegal goods trade, and scams. 100% true, at least for vendors, since they'll be waiting for confirmations. Otherwise they're facing double-spend scams and things like that. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt aren't bullshit, but it's cute that you deflect a real argument with an acronym. There won't be a time where any intelligent person would have all their holdings in Bitcoin, because it is nothing more than a proposal that got out of hand. The guy who came up with it even said it'd be stupid for someone to use it like a real currency. Furthermore there will still be transaction fees, since those are what's planned to support the network operators after coins are mined. Regarding chargebacks, having a currency forbid them is not the appropriate answer to fraud that involves them. No consumer would have any faith in the system without some basic protection in case their stuff gets stolen. For all the problems caused by banks, it sure is nice to have someone who is regulated provide some kind of security in case I lose my wallet. So there you have it. Bitcoins are bad for merchants, as well as consumers. Edit: I love the quip about how a bad merchant's reputation will suffer. That doesn't work. If you want proof, just look at the bitcoin talk forums. Tons of scammers. If they get a scammer tag, they just come back under a different name. Reputations may matter face to face, but they're worthless here.
    - Anderkent 14y ago
      * No consumer would have any faith in the system without some basic protection in case their stuff gets stolen.* That's just not true. I wouldn't have any issues buying from a reputable merchant without the option of chargeback. I've never bought anything thinking 'well, if the guy is a scammer I can just chargeback'. So at least some consumers do have faith in the system without chargebacks. As to bitcoin scams: yes, if you buy from an unknown person because their offer is too good to be true, you should know their offer is probably too good to be true. Reputations can only help you if you trade with reputable people. But it's much more often the case that it's the seller that's the reputable party, not the buyer.
- pepr 14y ago
  1. Chargebacks are only necessary because of the pull nature of the US banking system. I haven't even heard about chargeback until I came to US from Europe. Bitcoin is push, no chargebacks are necessary because nobody can take your money. 2. For smaller sums of money (e.g. coffee) you can pretty much assume the transaction to be confirmed once you see it on the network. To be really, really sure the transaction is confirmed and money is yours, you have to wait about an hour. 3. Indeed, Bitcoin fluctuates, you need to peg it to your expenses which is usually your local currency. That doesn't mean you must convert it to that currency. You can incorporate this into your payment button. But yes, this is a downside.
  - icebraining 14y ago
    Well, I'm not from the US either, but as far as I know, chargebacks are used in other situations too, like dealing with a merchant that ends up not delivering the goods.
- mrb 14y ago
  "No one wants to buy anything with bitcon, and no one wants to go through the trouble of selling anything with bitcoin." You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. - There are at the very least 5k+ merchants selling products & services for bitcoins - a small fraction of them is listed on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade - and this is increasing every day - BitPay alone signed up 1500 businesses accepting Bitcoin: http://finance.sfgate.com/hearst.sfgate/news/read/23400142/when_your_paypal http://finance.sfgate.com/hearst.sfgate/news/read/23400142/w... You are not a Bitcoin user and have no idea how successful it is, that is fine, but do not spread lies. Obviously you have no idea how quickly the number of buyers and sellers using Bitcoin is rising...
  - betterunix 14y ago
    It is kind of difficult to determine the rate at which Bitcoin use is growing from your comment. 5000 merchants, 1500 businesses...and in what period of time? How many are still using Bitcoin today e.g. is the EFF among the thousands of Bitcoin businesses you cite? If you want to tell people that they need to get a clue, you could at least try to give them a clue in the process.
    - mrb 14y ago
      Ok, well, for example one can look at the estimated USD transaction volume maintained by blockchain.info: http://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume-usd http://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume-u... which went, over 1 year, from $0.5M to $10M transacted per day (it uses an algorithm to attempt to ignore the change of a transaction, hence "estimated"). A fraction of this volume is from people just moving BTC between their different wallets. It is impossible to estimate how large this fraction is. But the reasonable assumption that people are not artificially trying to game this chart by moving coins around leads to the reasonable conclusion that the volume of real transactions is increasing as well. You can look at the USD volume traded on the top Bitcoin exchanges which went, over 1 year, from $200-300k to $1.0-2.5M per day: http://blockchain.info/charts/trade-volume http://blockchain.info/charts/trade-volume You can look at Silk Road, who went, over 2 years, from zero to $2 million/month of Bitcoin revenues: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/08/study-estimates-2-million-a-month-in-bitcoin-drug-sales/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/08/study-estimates-2... A Bitcoin casino went, over 6 months, from zero to $0.5 million profits (in bitcoins): http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/01/bitcoin-based-casino-rakes-in-over-500000-profit-in-six-months/ http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/01/bitcoin-based-casino... Bottom line, all the indicators point to increased Bitcoin spending.

slinkyavenger 14y ago

Bitcoin fluctuates wildly in value. Bitcoin takes quite a while for a transaction to happen, and there are waits and fees involved in exchanging money from USD and back to USD. Bitcoin doesn't allow chargebacks, an important consumer protection mechanism, therefore helping to perpetuate fraud. No one wants to buy anything with bitcon, and no one wants to go through the trouble of selling anything with bitcoin.

discountgenius 14y ago
> Bitcoin doesn't allow chargebacks, an important consumer protection mechanism, therefore helping to perpetuate fraud. Chargebacks enable WAY more fraud than they stop.
- ScottWhigham 14y ago
  Downvoted for a blanket statement with no facts/source to back it up
lectrick 14y ago
> Bitcoin fluctuates wildly in value. It's been just growing steadily lately, but a seller can always convert to their local currency on the spot using a BTC payment processor. > Bitcoin takes quite a while for a transaction to happen 100% false. Every time I've used it, transactions take less than a second. Stop spreading FUD aka bullshit. > and there are waits and fees involved in exchanging money from USD and back to USD Yep... for now. I think the point is that at some point you won't have all your monetary holdings as USD. > Bitcoin doesn't allow chargebacks, an important consumer protection mechanism, therefore helping to perpetuate fraud. That's a funny thing to say, given that chargebacks are the very source of fraud these days. BTC is attractive to merchants precisely because you can't chargeback. If you have a problem with a merchant, bitch about them elsewhere and their reputation will suffer.
- betterunix 14y ago
  "Every time I've used it, transactions take less than a second" Are you bothering to wait for confirmations? Last I checked, waiting for confirmation of a transaction was a 10 to 30 minute process.
- slinkyavenger 14y ago
  Growing steadily? Bitcoin value is wildly speculative, since it's only backed up by make-work, illegal goods trade, and scams. 100% true, at least for vendors, since they'll be waiting for confirmations. Otherwise they're facing double-spend scams and things like that. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt aren't bullshit, but it's cute that you deflect a real argument with an acronym. There won't be a time where any intelligent person would have all their holdings in Bitcoin, because it is nothing more than a proposal that got out of hand. The guy who came up with it even said it'd be stupid for someone to use it like a real currency. Furthermore there will still be transaction fees, since those are what's planned to support the network operators after coins are mined. Regarding chargebacks, having a currency forbid them is not the appropriate answer to fraud that involves them. No consumer would have any faith in the system without some basic protection in case their stuff gets stolen. For all the problems caused by banks, it sure is nice to have someone who is regulated provide some kind of security in case I lose my wallet. So there you have it. Bitcoins are bad for merchants, as well as consumers. Edit: I love the quip about how a bad merchant's reputation will suffer. That doesn't work. If you want proof, just look at the bitcoin talk forums. Tons of scammers. If they get a scammer tag, they just come back under a different name. Reputations may matter face to face, but they're worthless here.
  - Anderkent 14y ago
    * No consumer would have any faith in the system without some basic protection in case their stuff gets stolen.* That's just not true. I wouldn't have any issues buying from a reputable merchant without the option of chargeback. I've never bought anything thinking 'well, if the guy is a scammer I can just chargeback'. So at least some consumers do have faith in the system without chargebacks. As to bitcoin scams: yes, if you buy from an unknown person because their offer is too good to be true, you should know their offer is probably too good to be true. Reputations can only help you if you trade with reputable people. But it's much more often the case that it's the seller that's the reputable party, not the buyer.
pepr 14y ago
1. Chargebacks are only necessary because of the pull nature of the US banking system. I haven't even heard about chargeback until I came to US from Europe. Bitcoin is push, no chargebacks are necessary because nobody can take your money. 2. For smaller sums of money (e.g. coffee) you can pretty much assume the transaction to be confirmed once you see it on the network. To be really, really sure the transaction is confirmed and money is yours, you have to wait about an hour. 3. Indeed, Bitcoin fluctuates, you need to peg it to your expenses which is usually your local currency. That doesn't mean you must convert it to that currency. You can incorporate this into your payment button. But yes, this is a downside.
- icebraining 14y ago
  Well, I'm not from the US either, but as far as I know, chargebacks are used in other situations too, like dealing with a merchant that ends up not delivering the goods.
mrb 14y ago
"No one wants to buy anything with bitcon, and no one wants to go through the trouble of selling anything with bitcoin." You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. - There are at the very least 5k+ merchants selling products & services for bitcoins - a small fraction of them is listed on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade - and this is increasing every day - BitPay alone signed up 1500 businesses accepting Bitcoin: http://finance.sfgate.com/hearst.sfgate/news/read/23400142/when_your_paypal http://finance.sfgate.com/hearst.sfgate/news/read/23400142/w... You are not a Bitcoin user and have no idea how successful it is, that is fine, but do not spread lies. Obviously you have no idea how quickly the number of buyers and sellers using Bitcoin is rising...
- betterunix 14y ago
  It is kind of difficult to determine the rate at which Bitcoin use is growing from your comment. 5000 merchants, 1500 businesses...and in what period of time? How many are still using Bitcoin today e.g. is the EFF among the thousands of Bitcoin businesses you cite? If you want to tell people that they need to get a clue, you could at least try to give them a clue in the process.
  - mrb 14y ago
    Ok, well, for example one can look at the estimated USD transaction volume maintained by blockchain.info: http://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume-usd http://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume-u... which went, over 1 year, from $0.5M to $10M transacted per day (it uses an algorithm to attempt to ignore the change of a transaction, hence "estimated"). A fraction of this volume is from people just moving BTC between their different wallets. It is impossible to estimate how large this fraction is. But the reasonable assumption that people are not artificially trying to game this chart by moving coins around leads to the reasonable conclusion that the volume of real transactions is increasing as well. You can look at the USD volume traded on the top Bitcoin exchanges which went, over 1 year, from $200-300k to $1.0-2.5M per day: http://blockchain.info/charts/trade-volume http://blockchain.info/charts/trade-volume You can look at Silk Road, who went, over 2 years, from zero to $2 million/month of Bitcoin revenues: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/08/study-estimates-2-million-a-month-in-bitcoin-drug-sales/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/08/study-estimates-2... A Bitcoin casino went, over 6 months, from zero to $0.5 million profits (in bitcoins): http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/01/bitcoin-based-casino-rakes-in-over-500000-profit-in-six-months/ http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/01/bitcoin-based-casino... Bottom line, all the indicators point to increased Bitcoin spending.