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But what does that concretely mean, "lowest bitrate or file size possible"? What do you mean by "possible"? You almost certainly mean choosing a lower bitrate
by doctorpangloss 14y ago
But what does that concretely mean, "lowest bitrate or file size possible"? What do you mean by "possible"?
You almost certainly mean choosing a lower bitrate whose numerical perceptual quality is similar to the video encoded at a higher bitrate. Of course, x264 can do that—that's what the CRF value is. It already has technology to choose the best bitrate per GOP given its perceptual model.
Even if I take everything you say at face value, your semantics, at minimum, are the snake oil. You make it sound like this perceptual compression technology doesn't exist, when it actually ships on by default in Handbrake.
I think what Daiz is talking about is snake oil of the technology, not semantic, variety.
So let's talk technology snake oil. Your special perceptual model might find situations where it could reduce the bitrate in a way that x264's model would disagree. But what about situations where x264's model is better? The end-user never gets to see where x264 makes a subjectively better image than your system does at a lower bitrate.
In other words, quality arbitrage: you can always claim to reduce bitrate by adjusting your model to be a bit more permissive than the competition. Knowing there is no rigorous numerical way to compare two perception-optimizing compressors, you can get away with "arbitrage" bitrate reductions.
Put another way, a lot of people are going to demand the wrong tests, because they don't understand the inherent contradiction of comparing two perception-optimizing compressors (like allegedly Beamr and x264's CRF model).
The way I'd know if your perceptual model were in fact better is if you could show me situations where it is wrong. In other words, convert your "lowest... possible" Beamr Perceptual Model parameter to a CRF parameter. You could do it subjectively. Find me situations where x264 chooses a lower bitrate than your model. At least if your model is falsifiable, it isn't snake oil.
Incidentally, Diaz did exactly this test. And your model calculate a worse bitrate than an equivalently-chosen CRF in all cases.
So your model isn't snake oil—it's just bad. Perhaps we would randomize the subjective differences, but my suspicion is the default Handbrake CRF (20.0) will work better more than 50% of the time for randomized videos against a randomized audience.
- bjornsing 14y ago> my suspicion is the default Handbrake CRF (20.0) will work better more than 50% of the time for randomized videos against a randomized audience. For those last few words there you actually got close to the problem, as I understand it from drorgill's explanation. So am I right to assume that you're critique, in this tone, is based solely on a "suspicion" of yours? As I read the OP this is absolutely not the test Daiz did...
- doctorpangloss 14y agoLooks like Daiz did a similar test to the one I described below. Naturally we would need blindly randomized videos and randomized audiences, rather than just Daiz audience of one knowing exactly which videos were encoded by what. We'd also need some function converting the CRF parameter to the Beamr Perceptual Model parameter ("minimum possible" parameter), which we could obtain by knowing the Beamr parameter for a given CRF when Beamr and x264 choose the same exact bitrate.
- tripzilch 14y agorandomized blind A/B testing really can make all the difference. they did the same on the Hydrogen forums, for testing lossy audio codecs, and if there was only a hint of information which bit was which, results would be heavily biased. crazy, but that's how human perception seems to work. it also raises the question whether, at some point, this placebo effect might not be way stronger, than any actual perceptual differences left over after correcting for biases. and if that's the case, maybe we don't need better codecs, but shinier TVs, and better people to convince us that video quality is better and more enjoyable. like snake-oil salesmen. or like that high end electronics brand that put a weight in their remote controls, just so it feels more 'solid' and high quality (brilliant idea, I forgot what brand, might've been Scandinavian).