4 ms·

I think you may be missing the point here. I'm sure you are a great engineer. And Impostor Syndrome and Dunning-Kruger are definitely phenomena you need to know

by jere 14y ago

I think you may be missing the point here. I'm sure you are a great engineer. And Impostor Syndrome and Dunning-Kruger are definitely phenomena you need to know. But the vicious response probably comes from a concern that is completely orthogonal to how good you are: Humility. People expect you to be humble. Even if you were the cleverest hacker on Earth, readers are not going to take kindly to you giving yourself kudos, even if it is something as small as being a "great engineer." I know hubris is one of great virtues of programmers, but I would contend that humility is a great virtue of writers. It's why self deprecation is so common in writing and comedy. You poke fun at yourself to make the audience feel more comfortable. Do the opposite (call yourself great) and you may be triggering impostor syndrome for your readers. Secondly, saying that Facebook is in the wrong because you are awesome.... well, that reminds me of another social norm: "The First Rule of Programming: It's Always Your Fault" I won't elaborate any further. I think Atwood has this one covered: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/03/the-first-rule-of-programming-its-always-your-fault.html http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/03/the-first-rule-of-p... http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2004/08/why-im-the-best-programmer-in-the-world.html http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2004/08/why-im-the-best-pro... By the way, I want to say that Zuckerberg's claim in the code.org video that Facebook's strategy is to literally hire as many talented engineers as possible is bullshit. Obviously, that's not their strategy.

xmlblog 14y ago
I agree with your point, though I'd phrase it more along the lines of humility being an endearing quality (less emphasis on people's expectations). The word "great" was likely what turned most people off. A whole slew of other adjectives would have been a lot less grating: competent, good, capable, or even accomplished to name a few. Even better would have been to write the post about somebody else. I also don't doubt that Godwin's Law kicked in after too long in the responses he might have gotten. And while I'm glad he seems to have overcome his self-esteem issue and doesn't let the negativity of others get him down, I can't help but observe that Internet can be a rough place if you're looking for catharsis.
readme 14y ago
Why would someone want to be humble? Lets look at the definition: hum·ble /ˈhəmbəl/ Adjective Having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance. When you're telling someone to be humble, what you're really doing is saying "You're not important, and I want you to know that." To even say that requires some pretension on your own behalf. People should not have a "low estimate" of their own importance. They should have an accurate one, and it's their business to come up with it. Not anyone else's.
- DanBC 14y ago
  That is one definition of 'humble'. Another is > not proud or arrogant; modest: to be humble although successful. And another is > courteously respectful: In my humble opinion you are wrong. Both of which seem, IMHO, to be more relevant to the thread than the definition you provide.
  - readme 14y ago
    You are correct to list those other definitions. I still think people who tell someone to be humble are pretentious.
  - josephlord 14y ago
    > courteously respectful: In my humble opinion you are wrong. Maybe it is because I'm English but does anyone say that when they are really being humble? I would assume sugar coating at best and dripping sarcasm at worst. Admittedly it isn't as bad as "with all due respect" followed by something indicating how little respect is considered due.
- Anderkent 14y ago
  When you're telling someone to be humble, what you're really doing is saying "You're not important, and I want you to know that." That's not what the definition says. By saying you should be more humble, I'm not telling you you're not important. I'm saying you may be important, but flaunting that importance is in bad taste. That's why it says showing a modest estimate of one's importance as one of the definitions. Why is it acting all important for no reason bad? Because if there is no reason for you to pull the "I'm more important than you" card (such as having to make a decision), the impression is you're only doing it to humiliate others.
nilkn 14y ago
What's unfortunate is that because of the way he presented himself, people have focused on this much more than the Facebook interview questions. I think the most important part of his previous post was where he mentioned that his second interviewer didn't even explain the puzzle correctly at first. This is a serious problem that I've personally encountered in several technical interviews at top companies. It is very frustrating to have a limited 30-45 minutes to discuss a problem and you end up wasting a small chunk of that because the problem wasn't even phrased correctly from the beginning.
jessedhillon 14y ago
Yeah, maybe some people will respect you for keeping humble. The question is still open as to whether you need the respect of those people -- and if you know you are greater than other people are telling you, then at some point you will need to stand up and tell it. And there will always be people who will try to pull you back down when you do that. (Of course, the onus is on you to actually be great) He has a valid point -- of the people who attain great recognition, whether "deserved" or not, many many of them have to be loud and take it for themselves. Rarely have I seen that it's merely handed, as if someone noticed the lonely hacker in the corner making everything go, and shined the spotlight on him. And part of "greatness" also is telling a story first, then making it true. It's hard to change the world if you start from the premise that objective, mutually accessible reality is more true than what you personally believe and desire.
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by jere 14y ago

xmlblog 14y ago

I agree with your point, though I'd phrase it more along the lines of humility being an endearing quality (less emphasis on people's expectations). The word "great" was likely what turned most people off. A whole slew of other adjectives would have been a lot less grating: competent, good, capable, or even accomplished to name a few. Even better would have been to write the post about somebody else. I also don't doubt that Godwin's Law kicked in after too long in the responses he might have gotten. And while I'm glad he seems to have overcome his self-esteem issue and doesn't let the negativity of others get him down, I can't help but observe that Internet can be a rough place if you're looking for catharsis.

readme 14y ago

Why would someone want to be humble? Lets look at the definition: hum·ble /ˈhəmbəl/ Adjective Having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance. When you're telling someone to be humble, what you're really doing is saying "You're not important, and I want you to know that." To even say that requires some pretension on your own behalf. People should not have a "low estimate" of their own importance. They should have an accurate one, and it's their business to come up with it. Not anyone else's.

DanBC 14y ago
That is one definition of 'humble'. Another is > not proud or arrogant; modest: to be humble although successful. And another is > courteously respectful: In my humble opinion you are wrong. Both of which seem, IMHO, to be more relevant to the thread than the definition you provide.
- readme 14y ago
  You are correct to list those other definitions. I still think people who tell someone to be humble are pretentious.
- josephlord 14y ago
  > courteously respectful: In my humble opinion you are wrong. Maybe it is because I'm English but does anyone say that when they are really being humble? I would assume sugar coating at best and dripping sarcasm at worst. Admittedly it isn't as bad as "with all due respect" followed by something indicating how little respect is considered due.
Anderkent 14y ago
When you're telling someone to be humble, what you're really doing is saying "You're not important, and I want you to know that." That's not what the definition says. By saying you should be more humble, I'm not telling you you're not important. I'm saying you may be important, but flaunting that importance is in bad taste. That's why it says showing a modest estimate of one's importance as one of the definitions. Why is it acting all important for no reason bad? Because if there is no reason for you to pull the "I'm more important than you" card (such as having to make a decision), the impression is you're only doing it to humiliate others.

nilkn 14y ago

What's unfortunate is that because of the way he presented himself, people have focused on this much more than the Facebook interview questions. I think the most important part of his previous post was where he mentioned that his second interviewer didn't even explain the puzzle correctly at first. This is a serious problem that I've personally encountered in several technical interviews at top companies. It is very frustrating to have a limited 30-45 minutes to discuss a problem and you end up wasting a small chunk of that because the problem wasn't even phrased correctly from the beginning.

jessedhillon 14y ago

Yeah, maybe some people will respect you for keeping humble. The question is still open as to whether you need the respect of those people -- and if you know you are greater than other people are telling you, then at some point you will need to stand up and tell it. And there will always be people who will try to pull you back down when you do that. (Of course, the onus is on you to actually be great) He has a valid point -- of the people who attain great recognition, whether "deserved" or not, many many of them have to be loud and take it for themselves. Rarely have I seen that it's merely handed, as if someone noticed the lonely hacker in the corner making everything go, and shined the spotlight on him. And part of "greatness" also is telling a story first, then making it true. It's hard to change the world if you start from the premise that objective, mutually accessible reality is more true than what you personally believe and desire.

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