3 ms·

> Personally, I think the overt bias problem is so bad right now See, that's where we disagree. I have watched many more men get torn down in violent fashion,

> Personally, I think the overt bias problem is so bad right now See, that's where we disagree. I have watched many more men get torn down in violent fashion, neglected, and excluded, than women. I think the overall tech culture sucks period, I don't think it's got nearly so much to do with sexism as you do. Like my example about the guy who mocks women speakers for being women -- and turns around and mocks another speaker for writing Java. That's a sex-related expression of general douchenuggetry. Remember that time Yehuda Katz interrupted a speaker at a meetup, said everything the speaker said was bullshit, and took over his talk? Yeah… nobody else does either. Cuz it was a man who was done wrong. My husband actually is on the receiving end of way more vitriol than me even though I'm at least 300% as visible. And I know I've sometimes received extra consideration and protection because I'm a woman. I'm not saying "Somebody pity the poor men." I'm also not saying women haven't suffered. Please don't think I am saying that. I'm questioning the root of the bad behavior, not how it feels to be on the receiving end. Since bias is all in the interpretation of data, I'd love it if there was some hard data we could compare. I don't believe there is, though. > after all, they won't have enough time to put in The best way to solve this problem isn't by writing blog posts about how women with small kids can swim with the fishes, but by killing the culture of overwork. By starving it, of men and women, by showing them that A) it's harmful to them, and B) that it's unnecessary for their goals. Laws would be nice, too. I'd bet you any amount of money that this indirect approach is better, because nobody gets their hackles up OR STEREOTYPED if you tell them, "You can achieve what you want with 40 hours a week. Here's how." Instead of attacking bad behavior, you support good behavior. Instead of attacking identity and trying to change people, you show people who are already motivated (they want something) how to achieve their dreams. Nobody likes being lectured, but everybody wants to achieve something. And, bonus, it's totally non-gendered… you help both men and women with the same stroke. (The downside is it's not as sensationalistic. But I consider that an upside.) If you've ever read my blog, you know that I practice what I preach here. I don't attack VCs or startups -- even though they richly "deserve" it -- I don't ever address anything to them, hoping they'll change. I go for their supply, the grist for their mill. Where I can actually hurt them… in the economics. This is deliberate, not accidental. I've been doing the same thing since I started teaching marginalized visual thinkers how to code. Based on the emails I've received over the years, I probably helped more women get into Rails than any Rails For Women endeavor, not to mention non-neckbeard-types who were male, simply by delivering information in a way that supported a different learning style. I don't think "shrink it and pink it" is a good way to sell products, and equally I don't believe that making general issues a women's issue is an effective way to create change. EDIT: If you find the above approach interesting, consider reading Obliquity by John Kay. Here's an essay that sums up the book (the book is still worth reading): http://www.johnkay.com/2004/01/17/obliquity http://www.johnkay.com/2004/01/17/obliquity

rdouble 14y ago
Is tearing people down at work an American thing? I worked in Japan, and there was a culture of overwork, but it wasn't anything like Glengarry Glen Ross.
- ahoyhere 14y ago
  No, it's not an American thing, it's an ego thing, and America has lots of great people and also a lot of huge egos and not a lot of cultural taboos to reign them in. Some call this the "rockstar" or "brogrammer" problem, but you'll find it in any industry where people think they're hot shit. No doubt many people in Japan have large egos, but Japan also has institutionalized politeness.
  - alinajaf 14y ago
    > but Japan also has institutionalized politeness. Careful. They also have an institutionalized social hierarchy, baked into the language and pretty much everywhere. It's expected that when you start at a new school or a new company that you will be treated like dirt by your 'superiors' on an ongoing basis. There's a much higher tolerance for hazing and bullying in general. This leaves me skeptical that Japanese culture fosters an environment where people are nicer to each other than anywhere else. Foreigners tend to get a free pass by being 'out of the system', unless their Japanese(ness) passes a certain threshold of fluency.
tptacek 14y ago
Strong agree that addressing the overwork issues will go a long way towards mitigating the gender privilege issues as well. However: very unlikely that we are ever going to resolve the overwork issues. Overwork is a part of Startuplandia's identity. In fact, overwork is a part of the American economic identity. Entrepreneurship is ostensibly easier in the US than most other places in the world because we don't push back on overwork until power imbalances start making the market break down. Also, overwork mitigates gender bias and privilege issues, but doesn't resolve them. Yes, getting everyone home for dinner cuts back on the "do you have small children" questions. But it doesn't resolve the "where else am I going to find a date" problems, or the "you need to be less emotional" problems.

rdouble 14y ago

Is tearing people down at work an American thing? I worked in Japan, and there was a culture of overwork, but it wasn't anything like Glengarry Glen Ross.

ahoyhere 14y ago
No, it's not an American thing, it's an ego thing, and America has lots of great people and also a lot of huge egos and not a lot of cultural taboos to reign them in. Some call this the "rockstar" or "brogrammer" problem, but you'll find it in any industry where people think they're hot shit. No doubt many people in Japan have large egos, but Japan also has institutionalized politeness.
- alinajaf 14y ago
  > but Japan also has institutionalized politeness. Careful. They also have an institutionalized social hierarchy, baked into the language and pretty much everywhere. It's expected that when you start at a new school or a new company that you will be treated like dirt by your 'superiors' on an ongoing basis. There's a much higher tolerance for hazing and bullying in general. This leaves me skeptical that Japanese culture fosters an environment where people are nicer to each other than anywhere else. Foreigners tend to get a free pass by being 'out of the system', unless their Japanese(ness) passes a certain threshold of fluency.

tptacek 14y ago

Strong agree that addressing the overwork issues will go a long way towards mitigating the gender privilege issues as well. However: very unlikely that we are ever going to resolve the overwork issues. Overwork is a part of Startuplandia's identity. In fact, overwork is a part of the American economic identity. Entrepreneurship is ostensibly easier in the US than most other places in the world because we don't push back on overwork until power imbalances start making the market break down. Also, overwork mitigates gender bias and privilege issues, but doesn't resolve them. Yes, getting everyone home for dinner cuts back on the "do you have small children" questions. But it doesn't resolve the "where else am I going to find a date" problems, or the "you need to be less emotional" problems.