4 ms·

Ignoring reality does not make it go away. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/02/05/171196714/the-jobs-with-the-biggest-and-smallest-pay-gaps-between-men-and-

by tgrass 14y ago

Ignoring reality does not make it go away. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/02/05/171196714/the-jobs-with-the-biggest-and-smallest-pay-gaps-between-men-and-women http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/02/05/171196714/the-jobs...

omonra 14y ago
It has been mostly debunked - and is attributed to choices people make: Here is Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich, explaining that the portion of the gender wage gap due to bias and prejudice is about 25% of the total gap. That is 75% of the gap is due to various career choices and career preferences that differ between men and women, and the remaining 25% is due to bias and prejudice. So if the wage gap is 24 cents on the dollar, the wage gap due to bias and prejudice is 6 cents. Still something to think about and work on, but a whole lot less inflammatory than 24 cents. http://www.freakonomics.com/2008/05/01/robert-reich-answers-your-labor-questions/ http://www.freakonomics.com/2008/05/01/robert-reich-answers-... “Q: I’d be interested to know your thoughts on the feminisation of poverty and the male-female wage differential. How much of that is due to career choice? A: Rough estimate: About 50 percent of the differential has to do with different career choices made by women and men. Twenty-five percent involves greater time women spend on care-taking of children and elderly relatives. The other 25 percent is due to bias and prejudice in the labor market.” (citation - this comment: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2012/12/17/profit-opportunity-if-women-earn-less-than-men/#comment-194717 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2012/12/17/profit-opportu...)
- tgrass 14y ago
  Your second citation only cites your first, which is not a debunking but a comment in an interview - which says 75% of the gap is due to career choice - but the link I provided shows gaps by career, making that distinction moot.
  - omonra 14y ago
    Apologies - I included the citation because I just copied someone else's comment that I found appropriate. I felt bad not citing where it was from. With regard to your article - it does not analyze difference in hours worked. Perhaps someone working 3 days a week after taking a few years off for maternity leave should earn less than someone working full-time with no experience gaps? Please see my other comment in this thread that cites more thorough research.
- AlexandrB 14y ago
  > Here is Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich, explaining that the portion of the gender wage gap due to bias and prejudice is about 25% of the total gap. That is 75% of the gap is due to various career choices and career preferences that differ between men and women, and the remaining 25% is due to bias and prejudice. So if the wage gap is 24 cents on the dollar, the wage gap due to bias and prejudice is 6 cents. Still something to think about and work on, but a whole lot less inflammatory than 24 cents. This analysis is incomplete and doesn't really debunk anything. First of all, career choices and preferences don't exist in a vacuum. They are partially the result of familial and cultural influence. Women are expected to behave a certain way and like certain things - this undoubtedly has an influence on which career they chose. Second, the way wages are set for a particular career is not always a rational process. Certainly the market influences how much someone is paid to some extent, but cultural and historical factors play a role here too. All this quote basically says is 25% of the wage gap is due to overt discrimination, 25% is due to child rearing, and 50% is due to unknown factors - including traditional gender roles and other more "covert" forms of discrimination as well as personal choices. Maybe studies that cover that last 50% exist, I don't know I'm not a sociologist, but saying that you can just throw 50% of the disparity away because it's "personal choice" is completely neglecting parts of the issue.
  - omonra 14y ago
    You realize that to claim a gender gap, you have to compare apples to apples - same job, education level, hours worked between genders? And when all of this is tabulated, there is no gender gap. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28246928/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/ http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28246928/the-gender-p... "Why the Gender Pay Gap is a Complete Myth Men are far more likely to choose careers that are more dangerous, so they naturally pay more. Top 10 most dangerous jobs (from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics): Fishers, loggers, aircraft pilots, farmers and ranchers, roofers, iron and steel workers, refuse and recyclable material collectors, industrial machinery installation and repair, truck drivers, construction laborers. They're all male-dominated jobs. Men are far more likely to work in higher-paying fields and occupations (by choice). According to the White House report, "In 2009, only 7 percent of female professionals were employed in the relatively high paying computer and engineering fields, compared with 38 percent of male professionals." Professional women, on the other hand, are far more prevalent "in the relatively low-paying education and health care occupations." Men are far more likely to take work in uncomfortable, isolated, and undesirable locations that pay more.Men work longer hours than women do. The average fulltime working man works 6 hours per week or 15 percent longer than the average fulltime working woman. Men are more likely to take jobs that require work on weekends and evenings and therefore pay more. Even within the same career category, men are more likely to pursue high-stress and higher-paid areas of specialization. For example, within the medical profession, men gravitate to relatively high-stress and high-paying areas of specialization, like surgery, while women are more likely to pursue relatively lower-paid areas of specialization like pediatrician or dentist. Despite all of the above, unmarried women who've never had a child actually earn more than unmarried men, according to Nemko and data compiled from the Census Bureau. Women business owners make less than half of what male business owners make, which, since they have no boss, means it's independent of discrimination. The reason for the disparity, according to a Rochester Institute of Technology study, is that money is the primary motivator for 76% of men versus only 29% of women. Women place a higher premium on shorter work weeks, proximity to home, fulfillment, autonomy, and safety, according to Nemko."
startuup 14y ago
This happens because women are raised to be terrible negotiators. http://books.google.com/books?id=k6vd7PJUFmYC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=k6vd7PJUFmYC&printsec=f... Its the way we (women) are brought up in the western world. Girls are pushed to be consensus driven from a young age; whereas, boys are encouraged to participate in conflicts. Its playing house vs. playing war analogy. This translates into women avoiding and being uncomfortable in conflict situations, even salary negotiations. But it can be changed. Awareness amongst parents is the first thing. Growing up in India, my father told me I could achieve anything I wanted. My mother took me to markets to bargain at a young age. As a result, I am not afraid of conflicts. My mantra is: If you dont ask, you will never get it.
- itsybitsycoder 14y ago
  Unfortunately it's not just that simple. Women are also societally expected to be less aggressive and not haggle, and are often punished for breaking this expectation in a way that men aren't. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/29/AR2007072900827.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07...
  - startuup 14y ago
    I agree that its not that simple and the 'society' needs to get more comfortable with assertive women. But, having a women specific organization does not answer that challenge. If anything, it creates a further divide by driving the society away... the best way to change this vicious cycle is to assimilate into the society and changing it from within.

by tgrass 14y ago

omonra 14y ago

It has been mostly debunked - and is attributed to choices people make: Here is Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich, explaining that the portion of the gender wage gap due to bias and prejudice is about 25% of the total gap. That is 75% of the gap is due to various career choices and career preferences that differ between men and women, and the remaining 25% is due to bias and prejudice. So if the wage gap is 24 cents on the dollar, the wage gap due to bias and prejudice is 6 cents. Still something to think about and work on, but a whole lot less inflammatory than 24 cents. http://www.freakonomics.com/2008/05/01/robert-reich-answers-your-labor-questions/ http://www.freakonomics.com/2008/05/01/robert-reich-answers-... “Q: I’d be interested to know your thoughts on the feminisation of poverty and the male-female wage differential. How much of that is due to career choice? A: Rough estimate: About 50 percent of the differential has to do with different career choices made by women and men. Twenty-five percent involves greater time women spend on care-taking of children and elderly relatives. The other 25 percent is due to bias and prejudice in the labor market.” (citation - this comment: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2012/12/17/profit-opportunity-if-women-earn-less-than-men/#comment-194717 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2012/12/17/profit-opportu...)

tgrass 14y ago
Your second citation only cites your first, which is not a debunking but a comment in an interview - which says 75% of the gap is due to career choice - but the link I provided shows gaps by career, making that distinction moot.
- omonra 14y ago
  Apologies - I included the citation because I just copied someone else's comment that I found appropriate. I felt bad not citing where it was from. With regard to your article - it does not analyze difference in hours worked. Perhaps someone working 3 days a week after taking a few years off for maternity leave should earn less than someone working full-time with no experience gaps? Please see my other comment in this thread that cites more thorough research.
AlexandrB 14y ago
> Here is Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich, explaining that the portion of the gender wage gap due to bias and prejudice is about 25% of the total gap. That is 75% of the gap is due to various career choices and career preferences that differ between men and women, and the remaining 25% is due to bias and prejudice. So if the wage gap is 24 cents on the dollar, the wage gap due to bias and prejudice is 6 cents. Still something to think about and work on, but a whole lot less inflammatory than 24 cents. This analysis is incomplete and doesn't really debunk anything. First of all, career choices and preferences don't exist in a vacuum. They are partially the result of familial and cultural influence. Women are expected to behave a certain way and like certain things - this undoubtedly has an influence on which career they chose. Second, the way wages are set for a particular career is not always a rational process. Certainly the market influences how much someone is paid to some extent, but cultural and historical factors play a role here too. All this quote basically says is 25% of the wage gap is due to overt discrimination, 25% is due to child rearing, and 50% is due to unknown factors - including traditional gender roles and other more "covert" forms of discrimination as well as personal choices. Maybe studies that cover that last 50% exist, I don't know I'm not a sociologist, but saying that you can just throw 50% of the disparity away because it's "personal choice" is completely neglecting parts of the issue.
- omonra 14y ago
  You realize that to claim a gender gap, you have to compare apples to apples - same job, education level, hours worked between genders? And when all of this is tabulated, there is no gender gap. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28246928/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/ http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28246928/the-gender-p... "Why the Gender Pay Gap is a Complete Myth Men are far more likely to choose careers that are more dangerous, so they naturally pay more. Top 10 most dangerous jobs (from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics): Fishers, loggers, aircraft pilots, farmers and ranchers, roofers, iron and steel workers, refuse and recyclable material collectors, industrial machinery installation and repair, truck drivers, construction laborers. They're all male-dominated jobs. Men are far more likely to work in higher-paying fields and occupations (by choice). According to the White House report, "In 2009, only 7 percent of female professionals were employed in the relatively high paying computer and engineering fields, compared with 38 percent of male professionals." Professional women, on the other hand, are far more prevalent "in the relatively low-paying education and health care occupations." Men are far more likely to take work in uncomfortable, isolated, and undesirable locations that pay more.Men work longer hours than women do. The average fulltime working man works 6 hours per week or 15 percent longer than the average fulltime working woman. Men are more likely to take jobs that require work on weekends and evenings and therefore pay more. Even within the same career category, men are more likely to pursue high-stress and higher-paid areas of specialization. For example, within the medical profession, men gravitate to relatively high-stress and high-paying areas of specialization, like surgery, while women are more likely to pursue relatively lower-paid areas of specialization like pediatrician or dentist. Despite all of the above, unmarried women who've never had a child actually earn more than unmarried men, according to Nemko and data compiled from the Census Bureau. Women business owners make less than half of what male business owners make, which, since they have no boss, means it's independent of discrimination. The reason for the disparity, according to a Rochester Institute of Technology study, is that money is the primary motivator for 76% of men versus only 29% of women. Women place a higher premium on shorter work weeks, proximity to home, fulfillment, autonomy, and safety, according to Nemko."

startuup 14y ago

This happens because women are raised to be terrible negotiators. http://books.google.com/books?id=k6vd7PJUFmYC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=k6vd7PJUFmYC&printsec=f... Its the way we (women) are brought up in the western world. Girls are pushed to be consensus driven from a young age; whereas, boys are encouraged to participate in conflicts. Its playing house vs. playing war analogy. This translates into women avoiding and being uncomfortable in conflict situations, even salary negotiations. But it can be changed. Awareness amongst parents is the first thing. Growing up in India, my father told me I could achieve anything I wanted. My mother took me to markets to bargain at a young age. As a result, I am not afraid of conflicts. My mantra is: If you dont ask, you will never get it.

itsybitsycoder 14y ago
Unfortunately it's not just that simple. Women are also societally expected to be less aggressive and not haggle, and are often punished for breaking this expectation in a way that men aren't. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/29/AR2007072900827.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07...
- startuup 14y ago
  I agree that its not that simple and the 'society' needs to get more comfortable with assertive women. But, having a women specific organization does not answer that challenge. If anything, it creates a further divide by driving the society away... the best way to change this vicious cycle is to assimilate into the society and changing it from within.