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Evidence. Bullies are very careful to cover their tracks, they know the limits of the system, verbal bullying is usually ignored as is physical intimidation.

by brador 14y ago

Evidence. Bullies are very careful to cover their tracks, they know the limits of the system, verbal bullying is usually ignored as is physical intimidation. And then it's one kids word against the others + one kid holding a chair. With the above, a reasonable adult, considering evidence, has no choice but to "arrest" the kid with the chair, since the other has done no wrong other than verbal + possible pushing. The system needs fixing by making what the bully did prior to the event actionable by the adults so it wouldn't escalate to where it did. Cameras would help. But then what do we do with the bully? Move him to another school and let the cycle repeat?

ErrantX 14y ago
The system needs fixing by making what the bully did prior to the event actionable by the adults so it wouldn't escalate to where it did. Cameras would help. At a school, the adults are the system, so I think my point still stands. I've long wondered what would have fixed this... in the end the only solution I could come up with would be to segregate the consummate bullies. I'm sure smarter people could think of more adroit solutions.
InclinedPlane 14y ago
Expel the bullies, force them out of the system. The government has an obligation to educate children, it does not have an obligation to educate bullies. If your child is a bully then you, as a parent, need to fix that if you want them to be able to be educated.
- ErrantX 14y ago
  That doesn't seem fair either to me. I mean, perhaps I am a sap, but I feel sorry for bullies as well. Usually what drives them is deep seated emotional problems of their own; and by pushing them out of the system all you do is create adult bullies, and probably offenders.
  - InclinedPlane 14y ago
    Bullies are in need of solutions too, but that is no excuse to let their problems spread out and have a huge impact on other kids and on society. The same thing is true of criminals. Most criminals (even up to rape and murder) don't start out as ordinary, well adjusted folks who one day wake up and go "huh, I'm bored, guess I'll go be bad", they lead troubled lives. They have been wronged by others and by society and sometimes they express that through theft, self-medication via drug use, violence, molestation, rape, murder, etc. We have to triage the problem. First, prevent harm from occurring to others. Second, attempt rehabilitation. Remember that bullies also create problems in other kids which can force them to act out. Force them to drop out and get into drug use. Force them to become bullies themselves, or thieves, etc.
polymatter 14y ago
Ok, as a teacher you come into the classroom and the normally shy kid with glasses is standing there angrily over the popular, loud, boisterous kid who looks shocked. Do you really need to call NCIS? I don't think its unreasonable to suggest you know exactly whats going on here. (hint: the shy kid probably did not suddenly decide right this moment to pop up and decide to fight for alpha status)
- anonymous 14y ago
  Yes, to you it is obvious, but not to the teacher. The teacher was her/himself the popular kid in school and cannot comprehend what shy even means. She/he doesn't see a bully and a kid who couldn't take it anymore, she/he sees a respectable well-adjusted upstanding kid well on her/his way to being a respectable well-adjusted successful adult and a psycho holding a chair.
  - ErrantX 14y ago
    That doesn't make sense. I was the kid with the chair; top of the class, got on really well with most of the teachers, mum was a school governor, history of being bullied... The teacher(s) new exactly what had happened. The administration didn't, though, and it was them that threatened to suspend me. They did account for the circumstances; they brought in the bullies parents and all of us sat around a table to discuss it. But he squirmed out of it ("so sorry! Only a bit of fun", etc.). The problem is; it's only when the bullied person does something extreme that the bully gets into that situation. And it didn't happen often, so this particular individual had lots of "last warnings" and final promises to be nicer. But no one followed up and punished him properly the next time. Teachers are there to educate, they aren't equipped properly to deal with a point of justice/behaviour.
    - loup-vaillant 14y ago
      > The teacher(s) new exactly what had happened. The administration didn't, though, and it was them that threatened to suspend me. That looks like it is a significant part of the problem: the adults most likely to exercise good judgement on these matters (teachers) don't have the power to do so.

by brador 14y ago

ErrantX 14y ago

The system needs fixing by making what the bully did prior to the event actionable by the adults so it wouldn't escalate to where it did. Cameras would help. At a school, the adults are the system, so I think my point still stands. I've long wondered what would have fixed this... in the end the only solution I could come up with would be to segregate the consummate bullies. I'm sure smarter people could think of more adroit solutions.

InclinedPlane 14y ago

Expel the bullies, force them out of the system. The government has an obligation to educate children, it does not have an obligation to educate bullies. If your child is a bully then you, as a parent, need to fix that if you want them to be able to be educated.

ErrantX 14y ago
That doesn't seem fair either to me. I mean, perhaps I am a sap, but I feel sorry for bullies as well. Usually what drives them is deep seated emotional problems of their own; and by pushing them out of the system all you do is create adult bullies, and probably offenders.
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  Bullies are in need of solutions too, but that is no excuse to let their problems spread out and have a huge impact on other kids and on society. The same thing is true of criminals. Most criminals (even up to rape and murder) don't start out as ordinary, well adjusted folks who one day wake up and go "huh, I'm bored, guess I'll go be bad", they lead troubled lives. They have been wronged by others and by society and sometimes they express that through theft, self-medication via drug use, violence, molestation, rape, murder, etc. We have to triage the problem. First, prevent harm from occurring to others. Second, attempt rehabilitation. Remember that bullies also create problems in other kids which can force them to act out. Force them to drop out and get into drug use. Force them to become bullies themselves, or thieves, etc.

polymatter 14y ago

Ok, as a teacher you come into the classroom and the normally shy kid with glasses is standing there angrily over the popular, loud, boisterous kid who looks shocked. Do you really need to call NCIS? I don't think its unreasonable to suggest you know exactly whats going on here. (hint: the shy kid probably did not suddenly decide right this moment to pop up and decide to fight for alpha status)

anonymous 14y ago
Yes, to you it is obvious, but not to the teacher. The teacher was her/himself the popular kid in school and cannot comprehend what shy even means. She/he doesn't see a bully and a kid who couldn't take it anymore, she/he sees a respectable well-adjusted upstanding kid well on her/his way to being a respectable well-adjusted successful adult and a psycho holding a chair.
- ErrantX 14y ago
  That doesn't make sense. I was the kid with the chair; top of the class, got on really well with most of the teachers, mum was a school governor, history of being bullied... The teacher(s) new exactly what had happened. The administration didn't, though, and it was them that threatened to suspend me. They did account for the circumstances; they brought in the bullies parents and all of us sat around a table to discuss it. But he squirmed out of it ("so sorry! Only a bit of fun", etc.). The problem is; it's only when the bullied person does something extreme that the bully gets into that situation. And it didn't happen often, so this particular individual had lots of "last warnings" and final promises to be nicer. But no one followed up and punished him properly the next time. Teachers are there to educate, they aren't equipped properly to deal with a point of justice/behaviour.
  - loup-vaillant 14y ago
    > The teacher(s) new exactly what had happened. The administration didn't, though, and it was them that threatened to suspend me. That looks like it is a significant part of the problem: the adults most likely to exercise good judgement on these matters (teachers) don't have the power to do so.