8 ms·

Bullying has to stop, now.

176 points by sw007 14y ago

redact207 14y ago
Too melodramatic, but I love the animation style.
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  I disagree. Bullying in public schools has one of the biggest impacts on social, cultural, and personal development. It's not just "a thing that happens" and has no effect, it's ubiquitous and it has a profound negative effect on millions upon millions of people. We give it short shrift so often because we have become inured to it. Too often we think it's just an inescapable fact of life, but it's not.
kunil 14y ago
Kids are mean, grow up.
- yesbabyyes 14y ago
  You sound just like... Oh now I know: a bully! This is not helpful advice, at all.
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  "Stop being raped." "Stop getting mugged." "Stop being stabbed." "Stop being murdered."
  - rplnt 14y ago
    To be fair, he didn't say stop being bullied. He said we, adults, should get over it - kids are and will be bullied. So while I don't agree with him completely, your comments are way off topic.
    - InclinedPlane 14y ago
      Oh, riiight. Ok, then. "Stop caring about people getting raped." "Stop caring about people getting murdered." People do bad things. Get over it.
deleted 14y ago
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jbrooksuk 14y ago
I can relate to this website and cause. I was bullied throughout my entire high school life, in the UK that's a total of 5 years. I hated every single second of it and my academic skills reflect this. I wasn't a troubled kid, I wasn't someone who looked to cause trouble and I wasn't in trouble except a couple of occasions. I found myself being physically beaten almost every day for being the runt of the kids. I didn't hit puberty till I was 16/17, I was about 5ft 4" during high school and now I'm 6t 2" at 21. I was your typical victim, glasses, braces, good at computers. None of it helped me. If I wasn't being beaten I was being called names, and as much as the phrase "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" is thrown around, it's not true. Honestly, I thought about committing suicide time and time again. The teachers all but provoked the bullies and my parents - who know better now - assumed the teachers would deal wit it. They didn't. Eventually I gave up mentioning it to be people. I was pushed down stairs, burnt with glue guns, you name it. On one occasion, I was beaten in class, my teacher turned around, saw what happened and looked away. She knew full well what happened. Eventually I dealt with it myself, I beat the crap out of the main bully. I wasn't proud of it, but I sorted it myself. It was that moment my life changed, the last month of school - yes, it took me that long to sort - was completely different for me, I had a couple of friends. I happened to muse the other day on Twitter that if I could do one thing differently, it'd be school. I'd sort my problems on day one. These days however I've achieved quite a lot, I'm proud of what I've done with my life and in some ways grateful for the bullying. It pushed me to better myself, I pursued computing, I'm now Lead Developer for a travel company. I have plans for a startup. I'm engaged. Life is awesome. I donate to Beat Bullying each year, this looks like a great project.
- MattBearman 14y ago
  It's odd, people always say things like "violence doesn't solve anything" but I've heard so many stories like yours where the bullying only stops when the victim retaliates with force. While I've personally never been on either end of bullying, what I've heard leads me to believe that for extreme physical bullying, getting violent can be the solution.
  - barry-cotter 14y ago
michaelgrafl 14y ago
Very impressive piece of work. But what the hell with the UI of this website? It can't find a link to the respective Youtube site, nor can I click the annotations. It looks really nice, but it's not very usable like that.
- clicks 14y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ltun92DfnPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=... if you would like a direct link (to watch it in 1080p, the animation is so superb you might as well :)). I was thinking maybe it was a little too melodramatic... but perhaps that helps to facilitate a cathartic release. At any rate -- it's certainly a well-produced piece and worth a watch.
- sw007 14y ago
  Yes sorry about this. The site - GetInspired365 has two parts to it. One part which is a daily dose of inspiration, and another which is where users can submit inspiring things they've found - a user has posted this video on to the site and not included the source and as such may be a bit frustrating. The original source is here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY
  - Nux 14y ago
    THANK YOU for the youtube link! The original site made my blood pressure go up and my damn browser freeze. Beautiful clip!
Tichy 14y ago
The thing that strikes me about school is that people are pretty much locked into it. Once you get out of that system, if you are surrounded by nasty people, you can usually just leave. That's what I do, anyway. With school, not so much luck - it's possible to transfer to another school, but it's usually not very easy to pull of. Of course the feeling of not being liked sticks, too, but perhaps it wouldn't even manifest itself so much if kids wouldn't have to expose themselves to so much nastiness to begin with. I wish I could explain to all the depressed kids that there is actually a whole world out there, beyond the borders of the small environment they grew up in. With 6 billion people on the planet, there are many, many people you can relate to. The people you went to school with are just random.
- Cthulhu_ 14y ago
  And yet, being 'locked in', as you describe it, teaches a valuable life lesson: sometimes you have to deal with what you have, instead of run away or hide. As described above, sometimes you need to punch a factor that makes your situation undesireable and triggers your "flight" response to greatly increase your situation. As in, this is your life, deal with it. You can't run away, so fix your problems instead of running from them. Teachers turn their back on you, so it's up to you. etc etc etc. Learning that will help you in your life. Your job sucks: you can either run away and find something else, or you can kick it into high gear and make it worth your while, save the company, get rich. Depending on situation, of course.
  - Mahn 14y ago
    You forget that you are kid when you are in school; you barely scratched the surface of understanding how people think, what motivates and what drives them, heck you don't even know how would you take care of yourself alone. And yet you're being asked to deal with this. Yes, we eventually have to learn how to deal with life, but not this way.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    I'm glad that punching back worked out for some kids, but I would be wary of inferring a general rule from that. Might be the kids for whom punching back didn't work out just didn't tell their story. What could also happen is that the bully gathers his friends and strikes back in a big way. Or maybe he has a knife. Or whatever - I don't know, probably I would try to punch back, too. But I don't think it is essential for people to go through such an ordeal.
ErrantX 14y ago
I don't think anything has touched me this deeply for years. I even got a little teary (which is rare for me). A lot of this I can relate to. School was hell for me, and I still struggle to forgive the adults around me during that period who, despite knowing what I (and others) faced, failed us utterly. Of course, school is rough and tumble - but when things went too far they sympathised, and in some rare cases talked to the bullies parents. I don't ever remember anyone being excluded or punished properly, though. One thing I am never, ever, going to tell my kids is the stupid "sticks and stones" rhyme. That's just to make you feel better, not them. I'd get depressed, or upset, and get hugs and sympathy, but no solutions. The first guy he describes in this video I can relate to. I became withdrawn, anti-social, believing that solace was in books and learning rather than other people. Fortunately I ran into some people at university who slowly dragged me out of myself. And, eventually, I met a girl who tore apart my world and helped me rebuild it (although, maybe she didn't realise at the time, I'd got so good at hiding everything away). One particular idiot at school loved to taunt me, hold my upside down by my ankles. One day I snapped, and as he ran at me I picked up a chair and swung it. So. Much. Trouble. I was very nearly expelled... The same guy was a consummate bully, big, loud and evil to anyone weaker than him. There was another kid in our class, a bit large but it was more muscle than fat. He was lovely, quiet and very very odd (I think he came from a bad family). One day the bully was shaking down some younger kids in the playground and, I remember this vividly, this guy just decided enough was enough. He calmly walked across the playground and threw bully against the wall. Pounded him in the face a few times and told him to stop. It worked, so so well (he was excluded of course, but there you go...), and we rarely suffered again. What does this teach kids? That there is no justice in the world except that which you take by violence? I am certain that school ripped up several years of my life, and still adversely affects me to this day. But what can we do? Kids will be kids, eh?
- deleted 14y ago
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- Cthulhu_ 14y ago
  > What does this teach kids? That there is no justice in the world except that which you take by violence? It teaches me, at least, that bullies get away with what they do because they don't get reprimanded enough. Physical pain is still the best thing to associate with negative or undesirable behavior. I see a distinct trend when it comes to bullying: 1. Kid gets bullied 2. Kid snaps, stands up for himself, beats up bully 3. Kid does not get bullied anymore I don't think physical violence is inherently wrong. Excess and systematic violence - as employed by a certain category of bullies - is, but some pain to associate bad behavior with is, I think, a critical part of upbringing and steering behavior. On systematic physical abuse, this is what happens when you get away with it. See also comment #2 (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5284818 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5284818); it stopped the moment the bullied stood up for himself and showed the bully, via a serving of physical violence, that his behavior is unacceptable and not without consequence. Spoiled kids that misbehave at school often are exemplary students at school, simply because teachers are able to get them to realize their behavior is unacceptable. That 'toggle' should also be done to bullies though, and I for one can't understand why not more is done about it in schools besides the rather static and easily ignored 'awareness' lessons.
rajatarora 14y ago
Very impressive animation and the way the youtube video is embedded to the site.
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  This is the youtube URL, btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY
deleted 14y ago
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unimpressive 14y ago
I think that Paul Graham's essay "Why Nerds Are Unpopular." hasn't aged a day.[0] I sincerely doubt that anybody is going to stop bullying anywhere without addressing the root causes. And I doubt the root cause is that kids are inherently evil monsters. [0]: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
nmudgal 14y ago
If you ever feel alone in this http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5270460 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5270460
pkhamre 14y ago
It looks like a reference to goatse.cx in the part about accepting yourself, at 5:58.
Gotttzsche 14y ago
uh, all im seeing is a quote about some piece and it fades out until i move the mouse again...??
- Mahn 14y ago
  There should be a video in the background full screen, try with another browser.
- CaptainDecisive 14y ago
  Yeah, same for me with Chrome. Irritating, isn't it. The site seems poorly designed. I can see a Flashblock icon in the top left so I know what's broken, but I can't click on the Flashblock icon to enable the content, as it won't take focus. Despite being interested in the topic I didn't dig deeper, so they lose a reader.
pinchyfingers 14y ago
The real problem is state-mandated detention centers for children. Bullying is a feature of the school system. Put kids in a healthy environment that leaves room for freedom and empowerment, and all of these kinds of problems would greatly diminish. Kids bully each other because we bully them.
petercooper 14y ago
Going off on a tangent here, but do people who are good at sports often suffer long term bullying at school? I wasn't bullied at school, IMHO (nothing physical, the odd bit of name calling.. which they got back ;-)) but it seemed as if people who were into sports avoided every hassle, including the sportier geeks who were in the football team, etc. Looking back, I have to wonder if there's something about being active, being in teams, or the effect doing sports has on your body (language) that means you either fit in better, stand up for yourself more, etc. I certainly feel that way as an adult now trying to become more active. It changes how you hold yourself. My daughter is now in all the social and sports clubs we can get in and which she enjoys. My parents never encouraged me into being active or joining clubs, but I have to wonder if I had been, maybe I'd be very different (not that I'm unhappy with my lot now :-)) and maybe my daughter could end up being one of the "popular kids" just by virtue of being active and socializing with her peers early.
- anu_gupta 14y ago
  I think it might also have something to do with being a recognised part of a group who would certainly be capable of punishing the bully. Interestingly, there's a young diver here in the UK called Tom Daley (got a medal at last year's Olympics). When the media frenzy about him kicked off a few years ago, he got bullied at school. However, diving is a pretty solitary activity and he certainly wouldn't have had a team with him to prevent this.
- colomon 14y ago
  Two thoughts: I can recall the lightest wrestler on my high school wrestling team getting bullied by his teammates several times. I didn't do anything to help him. I was one of those sporty geeks in high school, but I was completely unsporty in elementary school, and I was never significantly bullied. I suspect my "defense" was mostly being the biggest kid in the class.
- robinh 14y ago
  I think it may very well be the other way around. Example: I used to do sports. Then the bullies came. Then I stopped doing sports because that's where they were.
InclinedPlane 14y ago
We live in a country that is heavily optimized toward factory work. Designed to produce a citizenry which is made up primarily of compliant, obedient assembly line workers in an era where the dubious advantages that once had are no longer relevant. Our labor laws, our political systems, and especially our public educational system (which is heavily based on the Prussian model) have been built along these models. The impedance mismatch is becoming greater and greater over time, we would be wise to understand the root of the problem and work to fix it.
oulipo 14y ago
This is Shaun Koyczan, one of my favorite slam poet (he's from Canada)
duopixel 14y ago
I'd like to read an honest account from a former bully who matured into a fully functional adult. To this day I don't understand the motivation of terrorizing other kids. I've met some former bullies but it seems that they either don't remember or don't want to deal with understanding it themselves.
- robinh 14y ago
  Not a bully, but a bullied person who is still forced to sometimes interact with his former bullies. In my case, these people are quite functional in society, and when confronted laugh it off - seeing it is one big joke that isn't to be taken too seriously. It may be understandable that to this day, I honestly still feel my blood boil when bullying gets mentioned.
- fmavituna 14y ago
  > To this day I don't understand the motivation of terrorizing other kids. Really? Look at the popular culture around you, comedy movies, youtube videos, blogs all about bullying people (fail blog and all fail culture), look at the front page of reddit etc. I understand that if you don't personally connected but you can see that people enjoy other people's failures and misery. This kind of popular culture and the internet makes it even worse.
  - duopixel 14y ago
    > people enjoy other people's failures and misery This is a very grim outlook on life. What I see in popular culture is—for the most part—people being clowns in order to draw attention. I also think that having laughs at the expense of someone else's misfortune is not at the same level as causing misfortune in order to get some laughs, completely different things.
martinced 14y ago
I think it's very finely done. I'm impressed by the quality of that animation and the voice is both great and touching in its tone. I'd say part of the solution is explained in the animation itself: you don't have to feel this way if you're getting bullied. Parents have a role to play. My parents always told me to not pay attention (I was the smallest kids in my class from 4 years old to 15 years old or so, so people would tease me all the time). And I didn't pay attention. Then he talks in the animation about bearded girls: parents have to intervene here. I was a boy but when I started having a mustache, which looked silly in retrospect on the tiniest kid in the class, they offered me an electric razor. I hated that day the day it happened. But then I realized I had to shave. Same for bearded girls: parents have to take her to do laser elimination of the beard. Common. If parents have a fat kid, they should confiscate coke and sodas and force the kid to go exercice a bit. A daily run. Something. It was tennis and bycicling for me (not that I've ever been fat). Sure bullying is lame. But acting like a victim is not ok. I agree that fighting back is not always easy, but it's not always mandatory to physically fight back either. As someone else already commented here: if they insult you, you can fight back verbally (being smart makes it all too easy to be really mean in retaliation ; ) "Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent". We're all past the age of getting bullied and we can understand that nobody can make us feel inferior without our consent. Now we have to remember to raise our kids properly, so that they never become victims.
- cdmoyer 14y ago
  > We're all past the age of getting bullied and we can >understand that nobody can make us feel inferior without >our consent. Now we have to remember to raise our kids >properly, so that they never become victims. I don't think there is an age limit on being bullied. And while nobody can make us feel a certain way, they can certainly create an environment where it's an uphill struggle to remain positive.
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  This is bad advice. Kids don't start out strong, they aren't magically born with all the skills they need to be an adult. And we understand this, which is why we have different norms for children than for adults. When someone has grown into adulthood they may finally have their shit together and they may have acquired enough self-confidence to be able to handle bullying. But kids are not that way. And though we should try to guide kids towards becoming more mature along the way to adulthood we should not expect and especially not require that they have the maturity of an adult just in order to live day to day. Telling people not to become victims is often not helpful. It's good to be more self-reliant and self-assured. But that does in no way diminish the damage done by the perpetrators or their culpability for that damage.
RyanMcGreal 14y ago
Is it fair to hypothesize that a high proportion of people working in tech today were bullied and abused as children? Yet here we are today, as a community, still bullying, intimidating and harassing women who try to join our field. Something to think about as we recall the hurts that seared and traumatized us not so many years ago.
- klsw 14y ago
  I study CS at a (top* ) UK university. Having spoken to a fair few people, a pattern that became plain as day very quickly was that almost all of us have had a background that either very specifically involved bullying as children or at the very least would have set us aside very strongly (heavy therapy for various reasons being one example). It's actually joked about at this university in multiple disciplines, however, that it's hardly uncommon for those who attend here to be 'crazy' in some way. Lest you fear self-selection due to my own background I would point out that various circumstantial factors (including simply having spoken to many, many people) lead me to believe that I have enough of a sample to believe that isn't the case. Once again, when talking about others' lives I'll try to give as little identification as possible. * I thought at length before putting that in, but I would hope that HN comments aren't likely fodder for the sort of 'shocker' article that graces rag news headlines.
- drakeandrews 14y ago
  It's very easy for the abused to turn into abusers, hell I nearly did. It is what is making me so uncomfortable reading these comments advocating that the solution is to let the abused extract violence on their abusers. In too many cases, the abused discovers that they like the taste of violence, the power it grants them over those weaker or slower than them. And I can't knock them for that, violence feels wonderful. That's why I've had to be very careful not to let myself slip into that mold and remind myself that on the other side there is someone who is feeling the very same pain you shirk from.
jtheory 14y ago
Wow, that made me cry.
throwaway_1234 14y ago
In my previous job (my current one is far better), I experienced workplace bullying. Though childhood bullying is more traumatic long-term, and often far more overtly abusive, workplace bullying is in many ways harder to resolve, having a fight or full confrontation would often result in sacking + not being able to get a good reference going forward. The typical way it works is via underhand comments + actions designed to put you down but which generally look perfectly acceptable to other colleagues. This makes it easy to make out that it's your fault, you're hysterical, why are you causing trouble when there isn't any? No amount of bringing it up caused any managers up the line to do anything about it either - it wasn't in their interest to take the flak from challenging the people involved. The really pernicious aspect of it is how it grinds down your confidence to the point where you start actually believing there really is something very wrong with you. I spent months afterwards emotionally burnt out, even getting a new job was incredibly hard because I had begun to truly believe I was just totally shit at my job, programming, etc. The irony was, a simple word with the people concerned from a manager would have resolved a lot of the issue. The effort required was minimal and the consequences huge. Please, if you're a middle/upper manager, don't put your career concerns over the human beings 'below' you. And if you do, don't kid yourself about what you're doing.
Millennium 14y ago
This is why we need to stop teaching kids that it is wrong to defend themselves.
Ixiaus 14y ago
I have plugins in my browser disabled and I'm unable to click the media "area" at all (it's hiding behind something??). Just FYI.
deleted 14y ago
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lelele 14y ago
Then bully the bullies to make them stop. Otherwise, you are kidding yourselves.
Carlee 14y ago
Being bullied is a terrible thing to experience, and I wish that kids wouldn't be that cruel, however, to me, it is not fair to expel or exclude the bully. You can't blame the bully for his/her social upbringing. Kids are basically psychopaths in such a young age - they just act according to whatever they feel, and if they haven't been taught boundaries - well, shit. Bad environments promote shitty attitudes and behaviour patterns, which is often due to their parents. Rich or poor doesn't matter. Some of the worst bullies I've been faced against came from wealthy families. I think schools should be more focused on teaching the bullies way to cope with things at home, instead of simply excluding them. The bullies don't change their attitude, and someone new will take their place (I recall a Danish study about class rooms where the bullies removed, experienced the same amount of bulling just a month later. New bullies take other's places).
shreeshga 14y ago
school rankings should include "bullying" score.
chimpinee 14y ago
I don't think people appreciate how intractable a problem bullying is. For instance, bullying is qualitatively indistinguishable from teasing, which is regarded by most as part of normal, healthy socialisation. Hence low-level bullying goes unperceived. OTOH intense bullying is an embarrassment to the school statistics and hence frequently denied or covered up. We live in a society where people still put a tremendous amount of effort into being normal and liked, and as a corollary we tend to persecute those who don't do this. Bullies are our unappointed henchmen.
jader201 14y ago
As a parent, bullying -- or any type of oppressive actions on my children -- is something that terrifies me. Not because I want to shield my children from the world and its negative impacts -- because I want them to learn that the world is not perfect, and to be able to cope with an imperfect society. But because of the fact that these afflictions are often permanent and irreversible. I think the best hope a child has against bullying is to have a parent that cares, and is educated of the impacts of bullying and how to minimize the risks of their child being subject to bullying. Of course, this doesn't address the root issue -- the bully. And while we as a society can work towards educating others to help prevent their child from turning into a bully, there's obviously little I can do, as a parent, to change the behavior of a bully. I feel that best way I can help my child not be the bully is to show them unconditional love, the best I know how, and to help them to love others. I also try to equip them with empathy so that they understand that their actions have a real impact on others, but this is hard sometimes -- especially with younger children. However, I will honestly say that I don't feel equipped, as a parent, to help my child deal with bullying appropriately and effectively. Looking through this thread, I see a couple links, but does the hacker community have other good resources to equipping parents on how to help their child handle bullying?
sheraz 14y ago
You want a real show about bullying? Watch 3'oclock high [1]. It's a fun story about hitting back. I thought that video was horrible. Kids need to learn to hit back, either physically or verbally. My kids will learn to hit back because that is how I grew up. I've blooded lips and blackened eyes, and I've had it done to me. I grew up where the teachers were smart enough (and had enough autonomy) to let some of this play out. Fights were broken up and kids punished, but the penalties were not juvenile hall and a ride in a police car. Instead there was some detention and parent conferences, and often the respect of your peers. [1] - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094138/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094138/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
Urgo 14y ago
Not going to lie, this made me cry. Thanks for posting this. I'm sharing it with all my social circles now. Everyone needs to see this. Also its been posted already but direct YouTube link to this is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY
japhyr 14y ago
I have been teaching for about 15 years, with a mix of high school and middle school experience. I also worked for 6 months in an elementary school supporting students behaviorally. I have seen bullying my entire professional life. I have participated in countless professional development experiences over the years, and I have grown a healthy skepticism towards commercial offerings that aim to solve school-based problems. So I was not excited when we had to do a workshop based on the Olweus bullying prevention program [1]. I was completely impressed, however. This organization has examined bullying very carefully, and they have used the results of their studies to offer meaningful, concrete steps that can be taken to deal effectively with bullying. The two clearest things I learned were a good working definition of bullying [2], and a breakdown of the roles that people play in a bullying situation [3]. Bullying is negative behavior aimed at a person who will have difficulty defending themselves; it is repetitive in nature; and it is carried out by someone with an imbalance of power over someone else. In bullying situations, there are 4 negative roles: bullies, followers, supporters, and passive supporters. There are disengaged onlookers. There is a person who is being bullied, and there may be defenders and potential defenders. I learned that is often best to give our attention, when interrupting bullying, to the victim. Clearly if there is serious, immediate physical danger, we confront the bully first. But if saying something simple like, "Hey xxx, I don't like the way you're being treated, do you want to take a walk with me?" takes the power away from the bully, and stops giving that person the attention they have been craving. This is not enough; we need to follow up by dealing directly with the bully. But engaging the bully directly just feeds them the attention they want, and gives them more power. Quick story: My high school classroom looks out on the back of a kindergarten-first grade playground. My students and I watch little kids play all day long. We watch all the misfit kids play at the back, less-watched part of the playground. Most of what we see is low-level shoving, self-regulated by peer groups. I finally saw something I needed to interrupt last week. I watched a kindergarten kid grab another kid by the collar, shove him against a chain link fence, and hold his hand up to the kids face like a gun. I walked over and said, "Hi, my name is Eric, who are you?" to the bullying kid. He let go and got really humble, and said his name. Then I remembered to focus on the victim. He turned around, and he was a classic snot-nosed kid who looked like he'd be picked on a lot. I asked him his name, said it didn't look like he was being treated very well, and talked to him for a few minutes. All of the onlookers gave their attention to the victim, and you could see the bully backing out, not in fear, but because no one was paying attention to him. I did ask the bully before they dispersed, "Do you really want to shoot someone?" He said no, and I said he might want to find another way to play. By the way, if he had run off, I would have gone into the school and found him in his classroom. Those kids need to know that strong, positive adults are watching them. [1] - http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/index.page http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/index.page [2] - http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/faqs.page#Answer_numberCbQ1 http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/faqs.page#Answ... [3] (pdf, page 4) - http://www.pa-strengthening-families.org/providers/308/bullying_presenter_handouts/Olweus-at-a-Glance.pdf http://www.pa-strengthening-families.org/providers/308/bully...
falcolas 14y ago
Fantastic! A great call to action. But... how do we do it? What one person perceives as hurtful is normal behavior to another. There simply is no quantitative scale of what is hurtful behavior and what is not, because it differs from person to person. To those claiming "Our kids need to fight back", how's that other's parent going to respond when their child is beat up, for just saying the words "Pork Chop"? Not well, I can imagine. People are given nick names all the time, by their parents, by their peers. Because a minority of people take offense, can we now broadly classified this "normal" behavior as bullying? Bullying is not right, but neither is it simple to classify or prevent.
kstenerud 14y ago
There is only one way I've found to successfully deal with a bully: Fight back with everything you've got, and don't be fair about it. I got a LOT of flack from teachers who would give me the usual "solve problems without violence" bullshit, but here's the thing: In every school I went to (we moved around a lot), I got picked on by the local bullies one time, and ONLY one time. Sure, I got the shit kicked out of me a few times, but you don't actually need to win the fight. Once they realize that you won't just passively take it, they leave you alone. You will, however, have to deal with ignorant teachers.
- TeMPOraL 14y ago
  Curiously, that's more-less exactly how Ender from Orson Scott Card's "Ender Game" approached the topic.
  - kstenerud 14y ago
    Yes, I felt pleased and vindicated when I read that book years later. But he didn't actually have to go that far. You only need to cause enough pain to your opponent that they start to think twice.
    - TeMPOraL 14y ago
      True. It's even noted in the book, but the protagonist wanted to be absolutely, positively sure that no one - neither the current bully nor any other future bully - will try to hurt him again. He pushed things to the hard limit in pretty much everything he did. We don't have to - we shouldn't - go that far.
koenigdavidmj 14y ago
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1765109 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1765109 But son, as soon as someone puts their hands on you, they've crossed a line. Fuck them up. It's the only thing these vicious freaks understand. They're wild animals. They make violence on you, you need to show them that you're the stronger, bigger animal. When someone attacks you maliciously for no reason, you need to impose your will on them. Even if you lose, lose swinging. They respect it. Be a tough fight. This "talk it out" shit doesn't work... it's been the dogma for the last 30-50 years, it assumes the nobility of human nature will win out. It doesn't. It's nonsense. It just simply doesn't work.
drakeandrews 14y ago
This video popped into my stream a week ago now, I must have watched it eight or ten times now. It's certainly hit a chord with me. I went to a secondary school (ages 10-14, first half of high school?) where the senior teachers gave the speeches about a "Zero-Tolerance Approach to Bullying!" and how they had only had three cases of bullying in the last few years. They lied, cooked the figures and redefined bullying to cases of systematic physical abuse which was rare. Because they did have a zero-tolerance policy towards violence. I have two sets of parents, my dad and then my mum and step-mum. Starting secondary school someone found this out and like a lot of people suggested here when they tried to use it to verbally abuse me I exacted violence against him. Not wanting it to explode into something more, the school kept it very quiet and I didn't get punished, but neither did he. Instead, if he ever told anyone else what happened or about my parents he'd get off scott free. To his defense no-one found out for three and a half years. Instead, I got three and a half years of verbal abuse, the little physical things one can get away with in corridors, my possessions taken and hidden. Some teachers tried to help but there is only so much they can do when most of them don't care. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will break them for you" is something I remember hearing from a sympathetic teacher. Then one day, it suddenly became common knowledge. I found myself faced with what felt like a third of the school who wanted to see me beaten. Fortunately, I appeared to be the only person who didn't know this was going to happen, there were almost as many if not more people behind me (and quickly, around me) who were adamant that I was going to be okay. The next six months were basically hell. Then as the natural progression of things, I shifted schools to a school that had a teacher who kept everyone in line and looked after those who needed help, be they the abused or the abuser. I was lucky in that I found a support network that let me rebuild myself and my self-esteem after. I am who I am despite, not because, of what I've been through. Even if there are still days where I have to look a little closer at the mirror to remind myself of that.
InclinedPlane 14y ago
I hate that this link/discussion only spent a few hours on the front page of HN, and has been replaced mostly be frivolous crap. I'm sure the trivia behind why so many programming languages use curly braces is super fascinating, but I'd much rather be discussing something of substance. Are these honestly the things that people would rather be discussing instead of bullying and the work of poetry and art that has inspired this discussion? I'm a little bit disgusted by the HN community at large right now. If I could reset my karma level to 0 in trade for keeping just this one thread on the front page for a whole day I'd do it in a heart beat.

176 points by sw007 14y ago

redact207 14y ago

Too melodramatic, but I love the animation style.

InclinedPlane 14y ago
I disagree. Bullying in public schools has one of the biggest impacts on social, cultural, and personal development. It's not just "a thing that happens" and has no effect, it's ubiquitous and it has a profound negative effect on millions upon millions of people. We give it short shrift so often because we have become inured to it. Too often we think it's just an inescapable fact of life, but it's not.

kunil 14y ago

Kids are mean, grow up.

yesbabyyes 14y ago
You sound just like... Oh now I know: a bully! This is not helpful advice, at all.
InclinedPlane 14y ago
"Stop being raped." "Stop getting mugged." "Stop being stabbed." "Stop being murdered."
- rplnt 14y ago
  To be fair, he didn't say stop being bullied. He said we, adults, should get over it - kids are and will be bullied. So while I don't agree with him completely, your comments are way off topic.
  - InclinedPlane 14y ago
    Oh, riiight. Ok, then. "Stop caring about people getting raped." "Stop caring about people getting murdered." People do bad things. Get over it.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

jbrooksuk 14y ago

I can relate to this website and cause. I was bullied throughout my entire high school life, in the UK that's a total of 5 years. I hated every single second of it and my academic skills reflect this. I wasn't a troubled kid, I wasn't someone who looked to cause trouble and I wasn't in trouble except a couple of occasions. I found myself being physically beaten almost every day for being the runt of the kids. I didn't hit puberty till I was 16/17, I was about 5ft 4" during high school and now I'm 6t 2" at 21. I was your typical victim, glasses, braces, good at computers. None of it helped me. If I wasn't being beaten I was being called names, and as much as the phrase "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" is thrown around, it's not true. Honestly, I thought about committing suicide time and time again. The teachers all but provoked the bullies and my parents - who know better now - assumed the teachers would deal wit it. They didn't. Eventually I gave up mentioning it to be people. I was pushed down stairs, burnt with glue guns, you name it. On one occasion, I was beaten in class, my teacher turned around, saw what happened and looked away. She knew full well what happened. Eventually I dealt with it myself, I beat the crap out of the main bully. I wasn't proud of it, but I sorted it myself. It was that moment my life changed, the last month of school - yes, it took me that long to sort - was completely different for me, I had a couple of friends. I happened to muse the other day on Twitter that if I could do one thing differently, it'd be school. I'd sort my problems on day one. These days however I've achieved quite a lot, I'm proud of what I've done with my life and in some ways grateful for the bullying. It pushed me to better myself, I pursued computing, I'm now Lead Developer for a travel company. I have plans for a startup. I'm engaged. Life is awesome. I donate to Beat Bullying each year, this looks like a great project.

MattBearman 14y ago
It's odd, people always say things like "violence doesn't solve anything" but I've heard so many stories like yours where the bullying only stops when the victim retaliates with force. While I've personally never been on either end of bullying, what I've heard leads me to believe that for extreme physical bullying, getting violent can be the solution.
- barry-cotter 14y ago

michaelgrafl 14y ago

Very impressive piece of work. But what the hell with the UI of this website? It can't find a link to the respective Youtube site, nor can I click the annotations. It looks really nice, but it's not very usable like that.

clicks 14y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ltun92DfnPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=... if you would like a direct link (to watch it in 1080p, the animation is so superb you might as well :)). I was thinking maybe it was a little too melodramatic... but perhaps that helps to facilitate a cathartic release. At any rate -- it's certainly a well-produced piece and worth a watch.
sw007 14y ago
Yes sorry about this. The site - GetInspired365 has two parts to it. One part which is a daily dose of inspiration, and another which is where users can submit inspiring things they've found - a user has posted this video on to the site and not included the source and as such may be a bit frustrating. The original source is here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY
- Nux 14y ago
  THANK YOU for the youtube link! The original site made my blood pressure go up and my damn browser freeze. Beautiful clip!

Tichy 14y ago

The thing that strikes me about school is that people are pretty much locked into it. Once you get out of that system, if you are surrounded by nasty people, you can usually just leave. That's what I do, anyway. With school, not so much luck - it's possible to transfer to another school, but it's usually not very easy to pull of. Of course the feeling of not being liked sticks, too, but perhaps it wouldn't even manifest itself so much if kids wouldn't have to expose themselves to so much nastiness to begin with. I wish I could explain to all the depressed kids that there is actually a whole world out there, beyond the borders of the small environment they grew up in. With 6 billion people on the planet, there are many, many people you can relate to. The people you went to school with are just random.

Cthulhu_ 14y ago
And yet, being 'locked in', as you describe it, teaches a valuable life lesson: sometimes you have to deal with what you have, instead of run away or hide. As described above, sometimes you need to punch a factor that makes your situation undesireable and triggers your "flight" response to greatly increase your situation. As in, this is your life, deal with it. You can't run away, so fix your problems instead of running from them. Teachers turn their back on you, so it's up to you. etc etc etc. Learning that will help you in your life. Your job sucks: you can either run away and find something else, or you can kick it into high gear and make it worth your while, save the company, get rich. Depending on situation, of course.
- Mahn 14y ago
  You forget that you are kid when you are in school; you barely scratched the surface of understanding how people think, what motivates and what drives them, heck you don't even know how would you take care of yourself alone. And yet you're being asked to deal with this. Yes, we eventually have to learn how to deal with life, but not this way.
- Tichy 14y ago
  I'm glad that punching back worked out for some kids, but I would be wary of inferring a general rule from that. Might be the kids for whom punching back didn't work out just didn't tell their story. What could also happen is that the bully gathers his friends and strikes back in a big way. Or maybe he has a knife. Or whatever - I don't know, probably I would try to punch back, too. But I don't think it is essential for people to go through such an ordeal.

ErrantX 14y ago

I don't think anything has touched me this deeply for years. I even got a little teary (which is rare for me). A lot of this I can relate to. School was hell for me, and I still struggle to forgive the adults around me during that period who, despite knowing what I (and others) faced, failed us utterly. Of course, school is rough and tumble - but when things went too far they sympathised, and in some rare cases talked to the bullies parents. I don't ever remember anyone being excluded or punished properly, though. One thing I am never, ever, going to tell my kids is the stupid "sticks and stones" rhyme. That's just to make you feel better, not them. I'd get depressed, or upset, and get hugs and sympathy, but no solutions. The first guy he describes in this video I can relate to. I became withdrawn, anti-social, believing that solace was in books and learning rather than other people. Fortunately I ran into some people at university who slowly dragged me out of myself. And, eventually, I met a girl who tore apart my world and helped me rebuild it (although, maybe she didn't realise at the time, I'd got so good at hiding everything away). One particular idiot at school loved to taunt me, hold my upside down by my ankles. One day I snapped, and as he ran at me I picked up a chair and swung it. So. Much. Trouble. I was very nearly expelled... The same guy was a consummate bully, big, loud and evil to anyone weaker than him. There was another kid in our class, a bit large but it was more muscle than fat. He was lovely, quiet and very very odd (I think he came from a bad family). One day the bully was shaking down some younger kids in the playground and, I remember this vividly, this guy just decided enough was enough. He calmly walked across the playground and threw bully against the wall. Pounded him in the face a few times and told him to stop. It worked, so so well (he was excluded of course, but there you go...), and we rarely suffered again. What does this teach kids? That there is no justice in the world except that which you take by violence? I am certain that school ripped up several years of my life, and still adversely affects me to this day. But what can we do? Kids will be kids, eh?

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
Cthulhu_ 14y ago
> What does this teach kids? That there is no justice in the world except that which you take by violence? It teaches me, at least, that bullies get away with what they do because they don't get reprimanded enough. Physical pain is still the best thing to associate with negative or undesirable behavior. I see a distinct trend when it comes to bullying: 1. Kid gets bullied 2. Kid snaps, stands up for himself, beats up bully 3. Kid does not get bullied anymore I don't think physical violence is inherently wrong. Excess and systematic violence - as employed by a certain category of bullies - is, but some pain to associate bad behavior with is, I think, a critical part of upbringing and steering behavior. On systematic physical abuse, this is what happens when you get away with it. See also comment #2 (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5284818 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5284818); it stopped the moment the bullied stood up for himself and showed the bully, via a serving of physical violence, that his behavior is unacceptable and not without consequence. Spoiled kids that misbehave at school often are exemplary students at school, simply because teachers are able to get them to realize their behavior is unacceptable. That 'toggle' should also be done to bullies though, and I for one can't understand why not more is done about it in schools besides the rather static and easily ignored 'awareness' lessons.

rajatarora 14y ago

Very impressive animation and the way the youtube video is embedded to the site.

InclinedPlane 14y ago
This is the youtube URL, btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

unimpressive 14y ago

I think that Paul Graham's essay "Why Nerds Are Unpopular." hasn't aged a day.[0] I sincerely doubt that anybody is going to stop bullying anywhere without addressing the root causes. And I doubt the root cause is that kids are inherently evil monsters. [0]: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

nmudgal 14y ago

If you ever feel alone in this http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5270460 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5270460

pkhamre 14y ago

It looks like a reference to goatse.cx in the part about accepting yourself, at 5:58.

Gotttzsche 14y ago

uh, all im seeing is a quote about some piece and it fades out until i move the mouse again...??

Mahn 14y ago
There should be a video in the background full screen, try with another browser.
CaptainDecisive 14y ago
Yeah, same for me with Chrome. Irritating, isn't it. The site seems poorly designed. I can see a Flashblock icon in the top left so I know what's broken, but I can't click on the Flashblock icon to enable the content, as it won't take focus. Despite being interested in the topic I didn't dig deeper, so they lose a reader.

pinchyfingers 14y ago

The real problem is state-mandated detention centers for children. Bullying is a feature of the school system. Put kids in a healthy environment that leaves room for freedom and empowerment, and all of these kinds of problems would greatly diminish. Kids bully each other because we bully them.

petercooper 14y ago

Going off on a tangent here, but do people who are good at sports often suffer long term bullying at school? I wasn't bullied at school, IMHO (nothing physical, the odd bit of name calling.. which they got back ;-)) but it seemed as if people who were into sports avoided every hassle, including the sportier geeks who were in the football team, etc. Looking back, I have to wonder if there's something about being active, being in teams, or the effect doing sports has on your body (language) that means you either fit in better, stand up for yourself more, etc. I certainly feel that way as an adult now trying to become more active. It changes how you hold yourself. My daughter is now in all the social and sports clubs we can get in and which she enjoys. My parents never encouraged me into being active or joining clubs, but I have to wonder if I had been, maybe I'd be very different (not that I'm unhappy with my lot now :-)) and maybe my daughter could end up being one of the "popular kids" just by virtue of being active and socializing with her peers early.

anu_gupta 14y ago
I think it might also have something to do with being a recognised part of a group who would certainly be capable of punishing the bully. Interestingly, there's a young diver here in the UK called Tom Daley (got a medal at last year's Olympics). When the media frenzy about him kicked off a few years ago, he got bullied at school. However, diving is a pretty solitary activity and he certainly wouldn't have had a team with him to prevent this.
colomon 14y ago
Two thoughts: I can recall the lightest wrestler on my high school wrestling team getting bullied by his teammates several times. I didn't do anything to help him. I was one of those sporty geeks in high school, but I was completely unsporty in elementary school, and I was never significantly bullied. I suspect my "defense" was mostly being the biggest kid in the class.
robinh 14y ago
I think it may very well be the other way around. Example: I used to do sports. Then the bullies came. Then I stopped doing sports because that's where they were.

InclinedPlane 14y ago

We live in a country that is heavily optimized toward factory work. Designed to produce a citizenry which is made up primarily of compliant, obedient assembly line workers in an era where the dubious advantages that once had are no longer relevant. Our labor laws, our political systems, and especially our public educational system (which is heavily based on the Prussian model) have been built along these models. The impedance mismatch is becoming greater and greater over time, we would be wise to understand the root of the problem and work to fix it.

oulipo 14y ago

This is Shaun Koyczan, one of my favorite slam poet (he's from Canada)

duopixel 14y ago

I'd like to read an honest account from a former bully who matured into a fully functional adult. To this day I don't understand the motivation of terrorizing other kids. I've met some former bullies but it seems that they either don't remember or don't want to deal with understanding it themselves.

robinh 14y ago
Not a bully, but a bullied person who is still forced to sometimes interact with his former bullies. In my case, these people are quite functional in society, and when confronted laugh it off - seeing it is one big joke that isn't to be taken too seriously. It may be understandable that to this day, I honestly still feel my blood boil when bullying gets mentioned.
fmavituna 14y ago
> To this day I don't understand the motivation of terrorizing other kids. Really? Look at the popular culture around you, comedy movies, youtube videos, blogs all about bullying people (fail blog and all fail culture), look at the front page of reddit etc. I understand that if you don't personally connected but you can see that people enjoy other people's failures and misery. This kind of popular culture and the internet makes it even worse.
- duopixel 14y ago
  > people enjoy other people's failures and misery This is a very grim outlook on life. What I see in popular culture is—for the most part—people being clowns in order to draw attention. I also think that having laughs at the expense of someone else's misfortune is not at the same level as causing misfortune in order to get some laughs, completely different things.

martinced 14y ago

I think it's very finely done. I'm impressed by the quality of that animation and the voice is both great and touching in its tone. I'd say part of the solution is explained in the animation itself: you don't have to feel this way if you're getting bullied. Parents have a role to play. My parents always told me to not pay attention (I was the smallest kids in my class from 4 years old to 15 years old or so, so people would tease me all the time). And I didn't pay attention. Then he talks in the animation about bearded girls: parents have to intervene here. I was a boy but when I started having a mustache, which looked silly in retrospect on the tiniest kid in the class, they offered me an electric razor. I hated that day the day it happened. But then I realized I had to shave. Same for bearded girls: parents have to take her to do laser elimination of the beard. Common. If parents have a fat kid, they should confiscate coke and sodas and force the kid to go exercice a bit. A daily run. Something. It was tennis and bycicling for me (not that I've ever been fat). Sure bullying is lame. But acting like a victim is not ok. I agree that fighting back is not always easy, but it's not always mandatory to physically fight back either. As someone else already commented here: if they insult you, you can fight back verbally (being smart makes it all too easy to be really mean in retaliation ; ) "Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent". We're all past the age of getting bullied and we can understand that nobody can make us feel inferior without our consent. Now we have to remember to raise our kids properly, so that they never become victims.

cdmoyer 14y ago
> We're all past the age of getting bullied and we can >understand that nobody can make us feel inferior without >our consent. Now we have to remember to raise our kids >properly, so that they never become victims. I don't think there is an age limit on being bullied. And while nobody can make us feel a certain way, they can certainly create an environment where it's an uphill struggle to remain positive.
InclinedPlane 14y ago
This is bad advice. Kids don't start out strong, they aren't magically born with all the skills they need to be an adult. And we understand this, which is why we have different norms for children than for adults. When someone has grown into adulthood they may finally have their shit together and they may have acquired enough self-confidence to be able to handle bullying. But kids are not that way. And though we should try to guide kids towards becoming more mature along the way to adulthood we should not expect and especially not require that they have the maturity of an adult just in order to live day to day. Telling people not to become victims is often not helpful. It's good to be more self-reliant and self-assured. But that does in no way diminish the damage done by the perpetrators or their culpability for that damage.

RyanMcGreal 14y ago

Is it fair to hypothesize that a high proportion of people working in tech today were bullied and abused as children? Yet here we are today, as a community, still bullying, intimidating and harassing women who try to join our field. Something to think about as we recall the hurts that seared and traumatized us not so many years ago.

klsw 14y ago
I study CS at a (top* ) UK university. Having spoken to a fair few people, a pattern that became plain as day very quickly was that almost all of us have had a background that either very specifically involved bullying as children or at the very least would have set us aside very strongly (heavy therapy for various reasons being one example). It's actually joked about at this university in multiple disciplines, however, that it's hardly uncommon for those who attend here to be 'crazy' in some way. Lest you fear self-selection due to my own background I would point out that various circumstantial factors (including simply having spoken to many, many people) lead me to believe that I have enough of a sample to believe that isn't the case. Once again, when talking about others' lives I'll try to give as little identification as possible. * I thought at length before putting that in, but I would hope that HN comments aren't likely fodder for the sort of 'shocker' article that graces rag news headlines.
drakeandrews 14y ago
It's very easy for the abused to turn into abusers, hell I nearly did. It is what is making me so uncomfortable reading these comments advocating that the solution is to let the abused extract violence on their abusers. In too many cases, the abused discovers that they like the taste of violence, the power it grants them over those weaker or slower than them. And I can't knock them for that, violence feels wonderful. That's why I've had to be very careful not to let myself slip into that mold and remind myself that on the other side there is someone who is feeling the very same pain you shirk from.

jtheory 14y ago

Wow, that made me cry.

throwaway_1234 14y ago

In my previous job (my current one is far better), I experienced workplace bullying. Though childhood bullying is more traumatic long-term, and often far more overtly abusive, workplace bullying is in many ways harder to resolve, having a fight or full confrontation would often result in sacking + not being able to get a good reference going forward. The typical way it works is via underhand comments + actions designed to put you down but which generally look perfectly acceptable to other colleagues. This makes it easy to make out that it's your fault, you're hysterical, why are you causing trouble when there isn't any? No amount of bringing it up caused any managers up the line to do anything about it either - it wasn't in their interest to take the flak from challenging the people involved. The really pernicious aspect of it is how it grinds down your confidence to the point where you start actually believing there really is something very wrong with you. I spent months afterwards emotionally burnt out, even getting a new job was incredibly hard because I had begun to truly believe I was just totally shit at my job, programming, etc. The irony was, a simple word with the people concerned from a manager would have resolved a lot of the issue. The effort required was minimal and the consequences huge. Please, if you're a middle/upper manager, don't put your career concerns over the human beings 'below' you. And if you do, don't kid yourself about what you're doing.

Millennium 14y ago

This is why we need to stop teaching kids that it is wrong to defend themselves.

Ixiaus 14y ago

I have plugins in my browser disabled and I'm unable to click the media "area" at all (it's hiding behind something??). Just FYI.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

lelele 14y ago

Then bully the bullies to make them stop. Otherwise, you are kidding yourselves.

Carlee 14y ago

Being bullied is a terrible thing to experience, and I wish that kids wouldn't be that cruel, however, to me, it is not fair to expel or exclude the bully. You can't blame the bully for his/her social upbringing. Kids are basically psychopaths in such a young age - they just act according to whatever they feel, and if they haven't been taught boundaries - well, shit. Bad environments promote shitty attitudes and behaviour patterns, which is often due to their parents. Rich or poor doesn't matter. Some of the worst bullies I've been faced against came from wealthy families. I think schools should be more focused on teaching the bullies way to cope with things at home, instead of simply excluding them. The bullies don't change their attitude, and someone new will take their place (I recall a Danish study about class rooms where the bullies removed, experienced the same amount of bulling just a month later. New bullies take other's places).

shreeshga 14y ago

school rankings should include "bullying" score.

chimpinee 14y ago

I don't think people appreciate how intractable a problem bullying is. For instance, bullying is qualitatively indistinguishable from teasing, which is regarded by most as part of normal, healthy socialisation. Hence low-level bullying goes unperceived. OTOH intense bullying is an embarrassment to the school statistics and hence frequently denied or covered up. We live in a society where people still put a tremendous amount of effort into being normal and liked, and as a corollary we tend to persecute those who don't do this. Bullies are our unappointed henchmen.

jader201 14y ago

As a parent, bullying -- or any type of oppressive actions on my children -- is something that terrifies me. Not because I want to shield my children from the world and its negative impacts -- because I want them to learn that the world is not perfect, and to be able to cope with an imperfect society. But because of the fact that these afflictions are often permanent and irreversible. I think the best hope a child has against bullying is to have a parent that cares, and is educated of the impacts of bullying and how to minimize the risks of their child being subject to bullying. Of course, this doesn't address the root issue -- the bully. And while we as a society can work towards educating others to help prevent their child from turning into a bully, there's obviously little I can do, as a parent, to change the behavior of a bully. I feel that best way I can help my child not be the bully is to show them unconditional love, the best I know how, and to help them to love others. I also try to equip them with empathy so that they understand that their actions have a real impact on others, but this is hard sometimes -- especially with younger children. However, I will honestly say that I don't feel equipped, as a parent, to help my child deal with bullying appropriately and effectively. Looking through this thread, I see a couple links, but does the hacker community have other good resources to equipping parents on how to help their child handle bullying?

sheraz 14y ago

You want a real show about bullying? Watch 3'oclock high [1]. It's a fun story about hitting back. I thought that video was horrible. Kids need to learn to hit back, either physically or verbally. My kids will learn to hit back because that is how I grew up. I've blooded lips and blackened eyes, and I've had it done to me. I grew up where the teachers were smart enough (and had enough autonomy) to let some of this play out. Fights were broken up and kids punished, but the penalties were not juvenile hall and a ride in a police car. Instead there was some detention and parent conferences, and often the respect of your peers. [1] - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094138/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094138/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Urgo 14y ago

Not going to lie, this made me cry. Thanks for posting this. I'm sharing it with all my social circles now. Everyone needs to see this. Also its been posted already but direct YouTube link to this is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY

japhyr 14y ago

I have been teaching for about 15 years, with a mix of high school and middle school experience. I also worked for 6 months in an elementary school supporting students behaviorally. I have seen bullying my entire professional life. I have participated in countless professional development experiences over the years, and I have grown a healthy skepticism towards commercial offerings that aim to solve school-based problems. So I was not excited when we had to do a workshop based on the Olweus bullying prevention program [1]. I was completely impressed, however. This organization has examined bullying very carefully, and they have used the results of their studies to offer meaningful, concrete steps that can be taken to deal effectively with bullying. The two clearest things I learned were a good working definition of bullying [2], and a breakdown of the roles that people play in a bullying situation [3]. Bullying is negative behavior aimed at a person who will have difficulty defending themselves; it is repetitive in nature; and it is carried out by someone with an imbalance of power over someone else. In bullying situations, there are 4 negative roles: bullies, followers, supporters, and passive supporters. There are disengaged onlookers. There is a person who is being bullied, and there may be defenders and potential defenders. I learned that is often best to give our attention, when interrupting bullying, to the victim. Clearly if there is serious, immediate physical danger, we confront the bully first. But if saying something simple like, "Hey xxx, I don't like the way you're being treated, do you want to take a walk with me?" takes the power away from the bully, and stops giving that person the attention they have been craving. This is not enough; we need to follow up by dealing directly with the bully. But engaging the bully directly just feeds them the attention they want, and gives them more power. Quick story: My high school classroom looks out on the back of a kindergarten-first grade playground. My students and I watch little kids play all day long. We watch all the misfit kids play at the back, less-watched part of the playground. Most of what we see is low-level shoving, self-regulated by peer groups. I finally saw something I needed to interrupt last week. I watched a kindergarten kid grab another kid by the collar, shove him against a chain link fence, and hold his hand up to the kids face like a gun. I walked over and said, "Hi, my name is Eric, who are you?" to the bullying kid. He let go and got really humble, and said his name. Then I remembered to focus on the victim. He turned around, and he was a classic snot-nosed kid who looked like he'd be picked on a lot. I asked him his name, said it didn't look like he was being treated very well, and talked to him for a few minutes. All of the onlookers gave their attention to the victim, and you could see the bully backing out, not in fear, but because no one was paying attention to him. I did ask the bully before they dispersed, "Do you really want to shoot someone?" He said no, and I said he might want to find another way to play. By the way, if he had run off, I would have gone into the school and found him in his classroom. Those kids need to know that strong, positive adults are watching them. [1] - http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/index.page http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/index.page [2] - http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/faqs.page#Answer_numberCbQ1 http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/faqs.page#Answ... [3] (pdf, page 4) - http://www.pa-strengthening-families.org/providers/308/bullying_presenter_handouts/Olweus-at-a-Glance.pdf http://www.pa-strengthening-families.org/providers/308/bully...

falcolas 14y ago

Fantastic! A great call to action. But... how do we do it? What one person perceives as hurtful is normal behavior to another. There simply is no quantitative scale of what is hurtful behavior and what is not, because it differs from person to person. To those claiming "Our kids need to fight back", how's that other's parent going to respond when their child is beat up, for just saying the words "Pork Chop"? Not well, I can imagine. People are given nick names all the time, by their parents, by their peers. Because a minority of people take offense, can we now broadly classified this "normal" behavior as bullying? Bullying is not right, but neither is it simple to classify or prevent.

kstenerud 14y ago

There is only one way I've found to successfully deal with a bully: Fight back with everything you've got, and don't be fair about it. I got a LOT of flack from teachers who would give me the usual "solve problems without violence" bullshit, but here's the thing: In every school I went to (we moved around a lot), I got picked on by the local bullies one time, and ONLY one time. Sure, I got the shit kicked out of me a few times, but you don't actually need to win the fight. Once they realize that you won't just passively take it, they leave you alone. You will, however, have to deal with ignorant teachers.

TeMPOraL 14y ago
Curiously, that's more-less exactly how Ender from Orson Scott Card's "Ender Game" approached the topic.
- kstenerud 14y ago
  Yes, I felt pleased and vindicated when I read that book years later. But he didn't actually have to go that far. You only need to cause enough pain to your opponent that they start to think twice.
  - TeMPOraL 14y ago
    True. It's even noted in the book, but the protagonist wanted to be absolutely, positively sure that no one - neither the current bully nor any other future bully - will try to hurt him again. He pushed things to the hard limit in pretty much everything he did. We don't have to - we shouldn't - go that far.

koenigdavidmj 14y ago

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1765109 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1765109 But son, as soon as someone puts their hands on you, they've crossed a line. Fuck them up. It's the only thing these vicious freaks understand. They're wild animals. They make violence on you, you need to show them that you're the stronger, bigger animal. When someone attacks you maliciously for no reason, you need to impose your will on them. Even if you lose, lose swinging. They respect it. Be a tough fight. This "talk it out" shit doesn't work... it's been the dogma for the last 30-50 years, it assumes the nobility of human nature will win out. It doesn't. It's nonsense. It just simply doesn't work.

drakeandrews 14y ago

This video popped into my stream a week ago now, I must have watched it eight or ten times now. It's certainly hit a chord with me. I went to a secondary school (ages 10-14, first half of high school?) where the senior teachers gave the speeches about a "Zero-Tolerance Approach to Bullying!" and how they had only had three cases of bullying in the last few years. They lied, cooked the figures and redefined bullying to cases of systematic physical abuse which was rare. Because they did have a zero-tolerance policy towards violence. I have two sets of parents, my dad and then my mum and step-mum. Starting secondary school someone found this out and like a lot of people suggested here when they tried to use it to verbally abuse me I exacted violence against him. Not wanting it to explode into something more, the school kept it very quiet and I didn't get punished, but neither did he. Instead, if he ever told anyone else what happened or about my parents he'd get off scott free. To his defense no-one found out for three and a half years. Instead, I got three and a half years of verbal abuse, the little physical things one can get away with in corridors, my possessions taken and hidden. Some teachers tried to help but there is only so much they can do when most of them don't care. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will break them for you" is something I remember hearing from a sympathetic teacher. Then one day, it suddenly became common knowledge. I found myself faced with what felt like a third of the school who wanted to see me beaten. Fortunately, I appeared to be the only person who didn't know this was going to happen, there were almost as many if not more people behind me (and quickly, around me) who were adamant that I was going to be okay. The next six months were basically hell. Then as the natural progression of things, I shifted schools to a school that had a teacher who kept everyone in line and looked after those who needed help, be they the abused or the abuser. I was lucky in that I found a support network that let me rebuild myself and my self-esteem after. I am who I am despite, not because, of what I've been through. Even if there are still days where I have to look a little closer at the mirror to remind myself of that.

InclinedPlane 14y ago

I hate that this link/discussion only spent a few hours on the front page of HN, and has been replaced mostly be frivolous crap. I'm sure the trivia behind why so many programming languages use curly braces is super fascinating, but I'd much rather be discussing something of substance. Are these honestly the things that people would rather be discussing instead of bullying and the work of poetry and art that has inspired this discussion? I'm a little bit disgusted by the HN community at large right now. If I could reset my karma level to 0 in trade for keeping just this one thread on the front page for a whole day I'd do it in a heart beat.