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It's not just enough to get women into tech. You have to get them to STAY in tech. Because that's becoming an even bigger problem. We're here. We're vocal. And

It's not just enough to get women into tech. You have to get them to STAY in tech. Because that's becoming an even bigger problem. We're here. We're vocal. And then we leave because of crappy things that happen to us. It's a lot to ask someone to be put through that time and time again.

oh_sigh 14y ago
It's amazing you know the inner lives and decisions of all, or even a large group of women. Tell me where you get your diving powers.
- steveklabnik 14y ago
  Actually, the statistics show an incredibly high attrition rate. No getting in heads required.
  - oh_sigh 14y ago
    Can you link me to these statistics that you know about? And can you link me to statistics from other fields? And can you link me to statistics which talk about why the women left the field? What if women leave the field because they can't countenance working long hours with little social interaction like many men can? That could account for the high attrition rate while not being because of any sexism in the sector.
    - steveklabnik 14y ago
      Attrition specifically: > The NCWIT reports 56 percent of women in technology companies leave their > organizations mid-way through their careers, representing a significant and > costly loss of talent. Reducing the attrition rate by just one quarter > would add more than 200,000 staff to the IT workforce. http://blog.comptia.org/2012/03/01/attract-women-to-high-tech/ http://blog.comptia.org/2012/03/01/attract-women-to-high-tec... Tons of links: http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2012-06-11-diversity-and-women-in-technology-resources http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2012-06-11-diversity-an... One of my friends has a series of blog posts. Even if you don't care for the text, she makes extensive citations: http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2011-08-16-the-elephant-in-the-computer-lab http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2011-08-16-the-elephant... http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2011-09-08-delicious-data-ethnicity-of-computing-and-the-us-population http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2011-09-08-delicious-da...
      - oh_sigh 14y ago
        I thank you for the sources. What I was specifically doubting was the linkage between attrition and sexism(which doesn't seem to be mentioned in the text you quoted). I will take a look over the links you provided this evening, but if you have anything more specific to add on the linkage between attrition and sexism, I'd love to hear it.
        steveklabnik 14y ago
        It's more in the links. You're welcome.
        wilkie 14y ago
        https://gist.github.com/wilkie/5032530 https://gist.github.com/wilkie/5032530 You naturally cannot use a microscope and come to a fixed, proven conclusion. However, I would say that all of the causes of attrition are very likely based upon a prevailing systemic gender oppression (sexism.)
        oh_sigh 14y ago
        And I would say that all of the causes of attrition are very unlikely based upon a prevailing systemic gender oppression. See, I provided as much proof for my argument as you did for yours. Where are we now?
        wilkie 14y ago
        I guess you cancel out my intuition with your random opposing statement and we are left with me with a ton of links to studies and you with absolutely nothing.
- RyanMcGreal 14y ago
  Please stop. Stop this. Stop being dismissive. Stop being condescending. Stop trying to intimidate a woman in tech who is trying to speak up about the pervasive sexism that demonstrably deters women from entering the field and then pushes women out when they do try to enter. Stop the bullying. Stop the patronizing. Just stop.
  - oh_sigh 14y ago
    > Stop being dismissive. Stop being condescending. I am dismissive regardless of gender when poorly argued points are made. It would be sexist of me to "take it easy" on a person because of their gender. If you feel like I am laying particularly hard into this poster, then I encourage you to peruse my post history and verify for yourself that I do not modify my strategies based on gender. > Stop trying to intimidate a woman in tech who is trying to speak up about the pervasive sexism that demonstrably deters women from entering the field and then pushes women out when they do try to enter. You say "demonstrably", but that is the exact point that is being argued. You are just taking it for a given. I am sorry, but I would need data to accept the claim. From my personal experience, I have not seen women driven out of the tech industry. I have seen a shortage of women in the tech industry, but I also saw a shortage of women in my college tech classes, and a shortage of women in my high school tech classes, and a shortage of women in my middle school tech classes. I could be wrong, but I don't think girls in 6th grade were discouraged from signing up for a programming course because they were afraid of sexism from the rest of their class. If anyone drives women out of tech, it is their parents who instill gender roles into their children from an early age. > Stop the bullying. Stop the patronizing. Just stop You call it bullying. I call it asking for data in a sarcastic manner.
    - RyanMcGreal 14y ago
      Anyone who is interested in an honest discussion about sexism in the tech industry can easily discover the data, which exists in abundance. If you can't be bothered to do a modicum of research before insulting and belittling a peer who is trying to have that discussion, then you are part of the problem.
- mediacrisis 14y ago
  If only there were some sort of world wide network of information where women could write about their experiences and share them with total strangers. I guess we'll have to leave it up to the occult for now.
  - oh_sigh 14y ago
    Have you read Steven Pinkers "The Better Angels of Our Nature"? In it, he argues that even though violent crime is on the decline, and is at a historical low, the perception of violent crime is at a historical high, because we are bombarded with stories about the few violent crimes that happen across the globe. Could it be the same pattern at play with blogs on the internet?
    - mediacrisis 14y ago
      It would be entirely fair to say that sexism is also on the decline, I don't dispute that. For example, my father can no longer sell me for 3 goats (without my consent, of course). But this doesn't make it a non-issue, just as violence is not a non-issue. Just because a program is throwing out fewer errors doesn't mean its fixed.

oh_sigh 14y ago

It's amazing you know the inner lives and decisions of all, or even a large group of women. Tell me where you get your diving powers.

steveklabnik 14y ago
Actually, the statistics show an incredibly high attrition rate. No getting in heads required.
- oh_sigh 14y ago
  Can you link me to these statistics that you know about? And can you link me to statistics from other fields? And can you link me to statistics which talk about why the women left the field? What if women leave the field because they can't countenance working long hours with little social interaction like many men can? That could account for the high attrition rate while not being because of any sexism in the sector.
  - steveklabnik 14y ago
    Attrition specifically: > The NCWIT reports 56 percent of women in technology companies leave their > organizations mid-way through their careers, representing a significant and > costly loss of talent. Reducing the attrition rate by just one quarter > would add more than 200,000 staff to the IT workforce. http://blog.comptia.org/2012/03/01/attract-women-to-high-tech/ http://blog.comptia.org/2012/03/01/attract-women-to-high-tec... Tons of links: http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2012-06-11-diversity-and-women-in-technology-resources http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2012-06-11-diversity-an... One of my friends has a series of blog posts. Even if you don't care for the text, she makes extensive citations: http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2011-08-16-the-elephant-in-the-computer-lab http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2011-08-16-the-elephant... http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2011-09-08-delicious-data-ethnicity-of-computing-and-the-us-population http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2011-09-08-delicious-da...
    - oh_sigh 14y ago
      I thank you for the sources. What I was specifically doubting was the linkage between attrition and sexism(which doesn't seem to be mentioned in the text you quoted). I will take a look over the links you provided this evening, but if you have anything more specific to add on the linkage between attrition and sexism, I'd love to hear it.
      - steveklabnik 14y ago
        It's more in the links. You're welcome.
      - wilkie 14y ago
        https://gist.github.com/wilkie/5032530 https://gist.github.com/wilkie/5032530 You naturally cannot use a microscope and come to a fixed, proven conclusion. However, I would say that all of the causes of attrition are very likely based upon a prevailing systemic gender oppression (sexism.)
        oh_sigh 14y ago
        And I would say that all of the causes of attrition are very unlikely based upon a prevailing systemic gender oppression. See, I provided as much proof for my argument as you did for yours. Where are we now?
        wilkie 14y ago
        I guess you cancel out my intuition with your random opposing statement and we are left with me with a ton of links to studies and you with absolutely nothing.
RyanMcGreal 14y ago
Please stop. Stop this. Stop being dismissive. Stop being condescending. Stop trying to intimidate a woman in tech who is trying to speak up about the pervasive sexism that demonstrably deters women from entering the field and then pushes women out when they do try to enter. Stop the bullying. Stop the patronizing. Just stop.
- oh_sigh 14y ago
  > Stop being dismissive. Stop being condescending. I am dismissive regardless of gender when poorly argued points are made. It would be sexist of me to "take it easy" on a person because of their gender. If you feel like I am laying particularly hard into this poster, then I encourage you to peruse my post history and verify for yourself that I do not modify my strategies based on gender. > Stop trying to intimidate a woman in tech who is trying to speak up about the pervasive sexism that demonstrably deters women from entering the field and then pushes women out when they do try to enter. You say "demonstrably", but that is the exact point that is being argued. You are just taking it for a given. I am sorry, but I would need data to accept the claim. From my personal experience, I have not seen women driven out of the tech industry. I have seen a shortage of women in the tech industry, but I also saw a shortage of women in my college tech classes, and a shortage of women in my high school tech classes, and a shortage of women in my middle school tech classes. I could be wrong, but I don't think girls in 6th grade were discouraged from signing up for a programming course because they were afraid of sexism from the rest of their class. If anyone drives women out of tech, it is their parents who instill gender roles into their children from an early age. > Stop the bullying. Stop the patronizing. Just stop You call it bullying. I call it asking for data in a sarcastic manner.
  - RyanMcGreal 14y ago
    Anyone who is interested in an honest discussion about sexism in the tech industry can easily discover the data, which exists in abundance. If you can't be bothered to do a modicum of research before insulting and belittling a peer who is trying to have that discussion, then you are part of the problem.
mediacrisis 14y ago
If only there were some sort of world wide network of information where women could write about their experiences and share them with total strangers. I guess we'll have to leave it up to the occult for now.
- oh_sigh 14y ago
  Have you read Steven Pinkers "The Better Angels of Our Nature"? In it, he argues that even though violent crime is on the decline, and is at a historical low, the perception of violent crime is at a historical high, because we are bombarded with stories about the few violent crimes that happen across the globe. Could it be the same pattern at play with blogs on the internet?
  - mediacrisis 14y ago
    It would be entirely fair to say that sexism is also on the decline, I don't dispute that. For example, my father can no longer sell me for 3 goats (without my consent, of course). But this doesn't make it a non-issue, just as violence is not a non-issue. Just because a program is throwing out fewer errors doesn't mean its fixed.