5 ms·

Third forum where I see this discussed - and same as in the other 2 a lot of the discussion here is again about his choice of his words instead about the conten

Third forum where I see this discussed - and same as in the other 2 a lot of the discussion here is again about his choice of his words instead about the content. I don't think that's a good sign.

jlgreco 14y ago
Nitpicking delivery is much easier than commenting on content, particularly when the person in question has a reputation of being unrelentingly pragmatic at the expense of artificially polite diplomacy.
msvan 14y ago
Maybe that's also the ultimate proof of him having chosen the wrong words.
- Jare 14y ago
  The debate about form is about better vs worse, not about right vs wrong. The only way they would be the wrong words is if they deliver the wrong message, but I think pretty much everyone understood the message alright.
potatolicious 14y ago
> "and same as in the other 2 a lot of the discussion here is again about his choice of his words instead about the content" Yes, and this is an important lessons to people who underestimate the importance of communicating effectively. If you walked onto the stage at the Oscars wearing assless chaps, you can hardly blame people when they can't remember what your thank-you speech was about. Similarly, when you throw around ad hominems about your opponent performing fellatio on a competitor, you cannot blame people when the discussion recenters around it.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  Do you really think that the people who actually matter failed to receive the message? No, spectators on slashdot and HN do not actually matter, despite how hard our ego may make it to internalize that.
  - anon1385 14y ago
    It's an embarrassment to our entire industry. It's one of the main reasons people avoid contributing to open source projects. Yes it matters. People who have the maturity and communication skills of 14 year old boys are not the only ones that can make worthwhile contributions.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      Torvalds being a meanie is dragging down the entire industry? That seems like quite the leap. Where are all of these people with patches that they have been holding on to for fear of the wrath of Torvalds, and why haven't they banded together and just ignored him? Unlike bullies in corporations, this guy is incredibly easy to just ignore; the only reason people don't ignore him is because despite being a meanie, he still commands respect. If he didn't, he wouldn't be in the picture.
      - anon1385 14y ago
        This isn't about one individual. Offensive, sexist, bigoted communication is standard in the industry. There are mini-Torvalds (and mini-ESRs and mini-DHHs) everywhere who think making derogatory comments about women or otherwise being gratuitously rude is how you prove your worth/"manliness" and a good way to run a project. Bad behaviour filters down, especially when people on HN or slashdot applaud it. >Where are all of these people with patches that they have been holding on to for feel of the wrath of Torvalds, and why haven't they banded together and just ignored him? On my hard drive and a million other people like me. Not for the linux kernel in my case, but other open source projects that I don't post my fixes to because it's probable that I'll just get flamed and it isn't worth the stress. If you don't realise how endemic this problem is then I can only presume you don't know any programers who aren't part of the 'boys club'. Torvalds can get away with it because linux is huge, but there are hundreds of other projects that struggle through lack of contributions. Next time some software you use crashes or hits some kind of bug, consider that you are probably not the first person to experience it and somebody somewhere probably already fixed it but didn't upload the patch because they didn't want to get abused.
- obviouslygreen 14y ago
  Definitely true. It's easy to take the "it's the content that matters" approach, but the reality is that delivery always matters. It may not be important to the message, but it's vitally important to how people receive your message: If you fail to deliver it effectively, it's your own fault when people ignore it, miss the point, or otherwise misunderstand/misinterpret your point(s) in whole or in part. Of course, no one is always going to get that right; we're human. But that's also exactly why it's so important to try hard. You can be certain that as soon as you slip even once your message will not get across in the way you intend it.

Third forum where I see this discussed - and same as in the other 2 a lot of the discussion here is again about his choice of his words instead about the content. I don't think that's a good sign.

jlgreco 14y ago

Nitpicking delivery is much easier than commenting on content, particularly when the person in question has a reputation of being unrelentingly pragmatic at the expense of artificially polite diplomacy.

msvan 14y ago

Maybe that's also the ultimate proof of him having chosen the wrong words.

Jare 14y ago
The debate about form is about better vs worse, not about right vs wrong. The only way they would be the wrong words is if they deliver the wrong message, but I think pretty much everyone understood the message alright.

potatolicious 14y ago

> "and same as in the other 2 a lot of the discussion here is again about his choice of his words instead about the content" Yes, and this is an important lessons to people who underestimate the importance of communicating effectively. If you walked onto the stage at the Oscars wearing assless chaps, you can hardly blame people when they can't remember what your thank-you speech was about. Similarly, when you throw around ad hominems about your opponent performing fellatio on a competitor, you cannot blame people when the discussion recenters around it.

jlgreco 14y ago
Do you really think that the people who actually matter failed to receive the message? No, spectators on slashdot and HN do not actually matter, despite how hard our ego may make it to internalize that.
- anon1385 14y ago
  It's an embarrassment to our entire industry. It's one of the main reasons people avoid contributing to open source projects. Yes it matters. People who have the maturity and communication skills of 14 year old boys are not the only ones that can make worthwhile contributions.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Torvalds being a meanie is dragging down the entire industry? That seems like quite the leap. Where are all of these people with patches that they have been holding on to for fear of the wrath of Torvalds, and why haven't they banded together and just ignored him? Unlike bullies in corporations, this guy is incredibly easy to just ignore; the only reason people don't ignore him is because despite being a meanie, he still commands respect. If he didn't, he wouldn't be in the picture.
    - anon1385 14y ago
      This isn't about one individual. Offensive, sexist, bigoted communication is standard in the industry. There are mini-Torvalds (and mini-ESRs and mini-DHHs) everywhere who think making derogatory comments about women or otherwise being gratuitously rude is how you prove your worth/"manliness" and a good way to run a project. Bad behaviour filters down, especially when people on HN or slashdot applaud it. >Where are all of these people with patches that they have been holding on to for feel of the wrath of Torvalds, and why haven't they banded together and just ignored him? On my hard drive and a million other people like me. Not for the linux kernel in my case, but other open source projects that I don't post my fixes to because it's probable that I'll just get flamed and it isn't worth the stress. If you don't realise how endemic this problem is then I can only presume you don't know any programers who aren't part of the 'boys club'. Torvalds can get away with it because linux is huge, but there are hundreds of other projects that struggle through lack of contributions. Next time some software you use crashes or hits some kind of bug, consider that you are probably not the first person to experience it and somebody somewhere probably already fixed it but didn't upload the patch because they didn't want to get abused.
obviouslygreen 14y ago
Definitely true. It's easy to take the "it's the content that matters" approach, but the reality is that delivery always matters. It may not be important to the message, but it's vitally important to how people receive your message: If you fail to deliver it effectively, it's your own fault when people ignore it, miss the point, or otherwise misunderstand/misinterpret your point(s) in whole or in part. Of course, no one is always going to get that right; we're human. But that's also exactly why it's so important to try hard. You can be certain that as soon as you slip even once your message will not get across in the way you intend it.