5 ms·

This has absolutely nothing to do with anybody's X or Y chromosomes, genitalia, or gender identity. It's part of growing up and people of all university majors,

by h2s 14y ago

This has absolutely nothing to do with anybody's X or Y chromosomes, genitalia, or gender identity. It's part of growing up and people of all university majors, professions, genders, shapes, colours and sizes experience it.

pessimizer 14y ago
It does. Women and minorities are primed to think that they suck anyway - and tech is a place where most of the ancient masters are white men. It takes a bit longer to learn to think of yourself as like those people, rather than a bargain replacement for them. Everybody can feel like an impostor when objectively competent; it could have been your parents or your older brother who primed you to think that any success you have comes from faking it, but that's not the same as saying that sex or race has "absolutely nothing" to do with it.
- addlepate 14y ago
  It's amazing how people discussing this issue will completely elide class to harp on race, gender, and sexuality. The person writing this went to Stanford University and no one sees fit to bring into discussion all the advantages that went into making that possible. We simply refuse to talk about class, we simply refuse. Incredible.
- smsm42 14y ago
  Impostor syndrom happens not because somebody was "primed", but because one knows one's own limits of competency and internal doubts better than anyone, but of course in others such things are not noticeable, so comparing oneself to others causes the person to self-doubt since everybody seems to be lacking internal struggles, deficiencies and doubts that are so clearly obvious to self. Of course, various "positive discrimination" programs won't help this too, since once one belongs to a group which such a program targets, one has yet another - in this case, externally validated - cause to doubt if one's achievements are of one's own merit or were just bestowed by somebody else due to the fact of belonging to the targeted identity group. In this case, if the identity group is gender- or race-specific, of course this component is very prominent.
  - cantankerous 14y ago
    Yes! I find myself dealing with this issue really frequently. I have to remind myself that, while I can't see it, everybody's got their own internal crap they're working through and I just can't see it...so I need to stop comparing my internal bs to external achievements of others.
    - nooneelse 14y ago
      Absolutely. When I also derived that commonly known idea for myself (seems the only way to have a hope of internalizing it and having it stick), I tried to think of a pithy way to say it, so I would have a better chance of remembering it when in the moment. The version that won by being remembered the most, "They didn't take pictures of Lincoln's messy closets."
  - wpietri 14y ago
    If that's the case, then everybody would experience impostor syndrome equally; we are all more aware of our internal struggles than those of others. Note that there are plenty of things one can do to fight structural sexism besides positive discrimination, so picking that out of the blue to discuss is a bit of red herring.
    - smsm42 14y ago
      Not really, the dependence on the external validation and on comparison with other people is different for different people, and so is the self-esteem and reflexiveness. So everybody would be feeling or not feeling it in a different way. The fact that some psychological problem has objective background does not mean everybody would have it the same way - people are different. >>>> Note that there are plenty of things one can do to fight structural sexism besides positive discrimination, so picking that out of the blue to discuss is a bit of red herring. I did not pick it "out of the blue", I chose it specifically because presence of such thing can support Impostor syndrome. I quite agree that there are better ways to go than discrimination, but I was not suggesting any and I wasn't discussing it, I was discussing possible causes for Impostor syndrome.
- Tuna-Fish 14y ago
  We actually have good data on this. 4 studies have been made on the prevalence of the impostor syndrome, none of them revealed any difference between the genders, even in fields considered to be heavily male dominated. Beegee posted references higher up on this thread.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    Which study are you thinking is most relevant to this? I read the Langford and Clance paper (but not the source papers, and I didn't see anything that I would consider as "good data" for answering this question). From what I read, I might go as far as saying we have some reason to think that impostor syndrome might be equally prevalent in men and women in tech. On the other hand, if research found the opposite, I could come up with a half-dozen reasons why that wouldn't be surprising. And I didn't see anything related to impact. It could well be that in tech men and women experience it with the same frequency, but it has more impact for women (or other people easily perceived as outsiders).
    - mnicole 14y ago
      Likewise, I don't think a study that simply states that both genders are affected equally actually answers the question here; there's a depth that needs to be calculated, rather than just a yes/no. The Langford study also says that men afflicted with Imposter Syndrome are much more likely to take risks than their female counterparts. I think that says a lot more about how women interpret themselves due to the societal expectations they mention in the beginning of the paper than the final results the study infers. Do both genders feel this way? Yes. Are you less likely to act on something because of it? If you're a woman, yes.
      - belorn 14y ago
        What we have is one study that say that when faced with imposter syndrome, correlations show that women tend to have extra low impulsivity and a need for stability and order in their life. Men on other hand when facing imposter syndrome had extra high impulsivity with a low need for order and stability. I don't see how either type of reaction can be consider good, bad, worse or better. Both has potential strong negative consequences. Too high impulsivity can lead to anything from death, bankruptcy, failure, or in rare occasions: success. Too low impulsivity can lead to an downward spiral, inaction, disadvantages, failure, or in rare occasions: success.
geebee 14y ago
According to wikipedia: "The impostor syndrome was once thought to be particularly common among women who are successful in their given careers, but has since been shown to occur for an equal number of men." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome They provide a citation for this, but here it is again (definitely worth going straight to the source rather than taking the one-line summary): http://www.paulineroseclance.com/pdf/-Langford.pdf http://www.paulineroseclance.com/pdf/-Langford.pdf "Studies of college students (Harvey, 1981; Bussotti, 1990; Lang- ford, 1990), college professors (Topping, 1983), and successful professionals (Dingman, 1987) have all failed, however, to reveal any sex differ- ences in impostor feelings, suggesting that males in these populations are just as likely as females to have low expectations of success and to make attributions to non-ability related factors." I would be inclined to think this syndrome is higher among programmers, because we don't have as clearly defined an education system as something like medicine. But thing is, I've known (yes, male) physicians who never felt confident, felt like they were faking it, even though they had gone to top medical schools and residencies in their specialty. So maybe it's best not to assume our own experience are unique and don't happen to other people.
- mnicole 14y ago
  I wrote this deeper in this comment thread, but the fact that both genders suffer from it in equal numbers does not mean they suffer from it in an equal manner. Towards the end of the paper, it says that men with IS are much more likely to take risks, so either women with IS are more affected by it or that view society has on their capabilities - that is mentioned at the beginning of the paper - actually does come into play here.
  - geebee 14y ago
    Is this the part? "When Beard (1990) compared the PRF traits associated with impostor feelings in men and women, he found differing patterns which suggest that, though both male and female impostors are high in defendence and untrusting of others, they may respond differently to this perception of threat from others in achievement situations. For females, impostor, feelings had low correlations with impulsivity and need for change, consistent with the usual description of impostors as cautious and unlikely to engage in risk-taking. For males, on the other hand, impostor feelings were associated with high impulsivity and a strong need for change, as well as a low need for order. Beard (1990) speculated that, instead of dealing with their sense of inadequacy in the withdrawing style typical of females impostors, male impostors may tend to compensate by pushing themselves in a frenetic manner in order to prove their competency."
dfxm12 14y ago
You are correct. Just because the author says "this experience applies to women who are learning to code", that does not preclude the experience from applying to anyone either. She isn't trying to imply that though. Certainly, the author addresses "girls learning how to code" specifically because her intended audience, on a website named "Lady Coders" is women who are interested in coding.
- smsm42 14y ago
  If somebody would write "this experience applies to men", most people would certainly see it as non-inclusive, and one would be reminded that it is better to write "applies to people" or something like that.
  - calopetreep 14y ago
    If the article did indeed say "this experience applies to women (...)", it now appears to've been edited for clarity.
  - saraid216 14y ago
    It's non-inclusive because men tend to be included and women tend to be excluded on an unequal basis. So "this experience applies to women" is a reminder that the experience also applies to women, which is usually forgotten.
    - obviouslygreen 14y ago
      While the inclusiveness issue you cite is reasonable enough, the conclusion that "x applies to normally-excluded group y" does not signal "x applies to y in addition to unmentioned but related group z." If you mean "also," use "also." I don't know if you're the author, but regardless, composing based on your perception of the way your audience thinks assumes too much about your audience and their perceptions of the issues you're writing around without being clear.
      - saraid216 14y ago
pjungwir 14y ago
One of my favorite books, Managing the Professional Services Firm by David Maister, talks about how professionals of all kinds tend to need acknowledgement and recognition of their accomplishments, and as soon as they accomplish one thing they move the goal posts further out. I don't recall whether he invokes impostor syndrome explicitly, but that's what it sounds like. No matter how accomplished/experienced you are, you always have a further goal and are seeking proof of your expertise.
cbsmith 14y ago
Yeah, I was going to say... "I have no doubt that women in the field face unique challenges and prejudices, but this article doesn't really even scratch the surface of them. If you did s/female/male/ on that headline the statement would cover the vast majority of CS students at Stanford. Heck, I'm sure most people around her age fight impostor syndrome --it kind of comes with that stage of development."

by h2s 14y ago

pessimizer 14y ago

It does. Women and minorities are primed to think that they suck anyway - and tech is a place where most of the ancient masters are white men. It takes a bit longer to learn to think of yourself as like those people, rather than a bargain replacement for them. Everybody can feel like an impostor when objectively competent; it could have been your parents or your older brother who primed you to think that any success you have comes from faking it, but that's not the same as saying that sex or race has "absolutely nothing" to do with it.

addlepate 14y ago
It's amazing how people discussing this issue will completely elide class to harp on race, gender, and sexuality. The person writing this went to Stanford University and no one sees fit to bring into discussion all the advantages that went into making that possible. We simply refuse to talk about class, we simply refuse. Incredible.
smsm42 14y ago
Impostor syndrom happens not because somebody was "primed", but because one knows one's own limits of competency and internal doubts better than anyone, but of course in others such things are not noticeable, so comparing oneself to others causes the person to self-doubt since everybody seems to be lacking internal struggles, deficiencies and doubts that are so clearly obvious to self. Of course, various "positive discrimination" programs won't help this too, since once one belongs to a group which such a program targets, one has yet another - in this case, externally validated - cause to doubt if one's achievements are of one's own merit or were just bestowed by somebody else due to the fact of belonging to the targeted identity group. In this case, if the identity group is gender- or race-specific, of course this component is very prominent.
- cantankerous 14y ago
  Yes! I find myself dealing with this issue really frequently. I have to remind myself that, while I can't see it, everybody's got their own internal crap they're working through and I just can't see it...so I need to stop comparing my internal bs to external achievements of others.
  - nooneelse 14y ago
    Absolutely. When I also derived that commonly known idea for myself (seems the only way to have a hope of internalizing it and having it stick), I tried to think of a pithy way to say it, so I would have a better chance of remembering it when in the moment. The version that won by being remembered the most, "They didn't take pictures of Lincoln's messy closets."
- wpietri 14y ago
  If that's the case, then everybody would experience impostor syndrome equally; we are all more aware of our internal struggles than those of others. Note that there are plenty of things one can do to fight structural sexism besides positive discrimination, so picking that out of the blue to discuss is a bit of red herring.
  - smsm42 14y ago
    Not really, the dependence on the external validation and on comparison with other people is different for different people, and so is the self-esteem and reflexiveness. So everybody would be feeling or not feeling it in a different way. The fact that some psychological problem has objective background does not mean everybody would have it the same way - people are different. >>>> Note that there are plenty of things one can do to fight structural sexism besides positive discrimination, so picking that out of the blue to discuss is a bit of red herring. I did not pick it "out of the blue", I chose it specifically because presence of such thing can support Impostor syndrome. I quite agree that there are better ways to go than discrimination, but I was not suggesting any and I wasn't discussing it, I was discussing possible causes for Impostor syndrome.
Tuna-Fish 14y ago
We actually have good data on this. 4 studies have been made on the prevalence of the impostor syndrome, none of them revealed any difference between the genders, even in fields considered to be heavily male dominated. Beegee posted references higher up on this thread.
- wpietri 14y ago
  Which study are you thinking is most relevant to this? I read the Langford and Clance paper (but not the source papers, and I didn't see anything that I would consider as "good data" for answering this question). From what I read, I might go as far as saying we have some reason to think that impostor syndrome might be equally prevalent in men and women in tech. On the other hand, if research found the opposite, I could come up with a half-dozen reasons why that wouldn't be surprising. And I didn't see anything related to impact. It could well be that in tech men and women experience it with the same frequency, but it has more impact for women (or other people easily perceived as outsiders).
  - mnicole 14y ago
    Likewise, I don't think a study that simply states that both genders are affected equally actually answers the question here; there's a depth that needs to be calculated, rather than just a yes/no. The Langford study also says that men afflicted with Imposter Syndrome are much more likely to take risks than their female counterparts. I think that says a lot more about how women interpret themselves due to the societal expectations they mention in the beginning of the paper than the final results the study infers. Do both genders feel this way? Yes. Are you less likely to act on something because of it? If you're a woman, yes.
    - belorn 14y ago
      What we have is one study that say that when faced with imposter syndrome, correlations show that women tend to have extra low impulsivity and a need for stability and order in their life. Men on other hand when facing imposter syndrome had extra high impulsivity with a low need for order and stability. I don't see how either type of reaction can be consider good, bad, worse or better. Both has potential strong negative consequences. Too high impulsivity can lead to anything from death, bankruptcy, failure, or in rare occasions: success. Too low impulsivity can lead to an downward spiral, inaction, disadvantages, failure, or in rare occasions: success.

geebee 14y ago

According to wikipedia: "The impostor syndrome was once thought to be particularly common among women who are successful in their given careers, but has since been shown to occur for an equal number of men." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome They provide a citation for this, but here it is again (definitely worth going straight to the source rather than taking the one-line summary): http://www.paulineroseclance.com/pdf/-Langford.pdf http://www.paulineroseclance.com/pdf/-Langford.pdf "Studies of college students (Harvey, 1981; Bussotti, 1990; Lang- ford, 1990), college professors (Topping, 1983), and successful professionals (Dingman, 1987) have all failed, however, to reveal any sex differ- ences in impostor feelings, suggesting that males in these populations are just as likely as females to have low expectations of success and to make attributions to non-ability related factors." I would be inclined to think this syndrome is higher among programmers, because we don't have as clearly defined an education system as something like medicine. But thing is, I've known (yes, male) physicians who never felt confident, felt like they were faking it, even though they had gone to top medical schools and residencies in their specialty. So maybe it's best not to assume our own experience are unique and don't happen to other people.

mnicole 14y ago
I wrote this deeper in this comment thread, but the fact that both genders suffer from it in equal numbers does not mean they suffer from it in an equal manner. Towards the end of the paper, it says that men with IS are much more likely to take risks, so either women with IS are more affected by it or that view society has on their capabilities - that is mentioned at the beginning of the paper - actually does come into play here.
- geebee 14y ago
  Is this the part? "When Beard (1990) compared the PRF traits associated with impostor feelings in men and women, he found differing patterns which suggest that, though both male and female impostors are high in defendence and untrusting of others, they may respond differently to this perception of threat from others in achievement situations. For females, impostor, feelings had low correlations with impulsivity and need for change, consistent with the usual description of impostors as cautious and unlikely to engage in risk-taking. For males, on the other hand, impostor feelings were associated with high impulsivity and a strong need for change, as well as a low need for order. Beard (1990) speculated that, instead of dealing with their sense of inadequacy in the withdrawing style typical of females impostors, male impostors may tend to compensate by pushing themselves in a frenetic manner in order to prove their competency."

dfxm12 14y ago

You are correct. Just because the author says "this experience applies to women who are learning to code", that does not preclude the experience from applying to anyone either. She isn't trying to imply that though. Certainly, the author addresses "girls learning how to code" specifically because her intended audience, on a website named "Lady Coders" is women who are interested in coding.

smsm42 14y ago
If somebody would write "this experience applies to men", most people would certainly see it as non-inclusive, and one would be reminded that it is better to write "applies to people" or something like that.
- calopetreep 14y ago
  If the article did indeed say "this experience applies to women (...)", it now appears to've been edited for clarity.
- saraid216 14y ago
  It's non-inclusive because men tend to be included and women tend to be excluded on an unequal basis. So "this experience applies to women" is a reminder that the experience also applies to women, which is usually forgotten.
  - obviouslygreen 14y ago
    While the inclusiveness issue you cite is reasonable enough, the conclusion that "x applies to normally-excluded group y" does not signal "x applies to y in addition to unmentioned but related group z." If you mean "also," use "also." I don't know if you're the author, but regardless, composing based on your perception of the way your audience thinks assumes too much about your audience and their perceptions of the issues you're writing around without being clear.
    - saraid216 14y ago

pjungwir 14y ago

One of my favorite books, Managing the Professional Services Firm by David Maister, talks about how professionals of all kinds tend to need acknowledgement and recognition of their accomplishments, and as soon as they accomplish one thing they move the goal posts further out. I don't recall whether he invokes impostor syndrome explicitly, but that's what it sounds like. No matter how accomplished/experienced you are, you always have a further goal and are seeking proof of your expertise.

cbsmith 14y ago

Yeah, I was going to say... "I have no doubt that women in the field face unique challenges and prejudices, but this article doesn't really even scratch the surface of them. If you did s/female/male/ on that headline the statement would cover the vast majority of CS students at Stanford. Heck, I'm sure most people around her age fight impostor syndrome --it kind of comes with that stage of development."