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Lovely idea, but I can't help worrying that this would be a money launderer's dream, especially with the aim of installing thousands of these machines all over

Lovely idea, but I can't help worrying that this would be a money launderer's dream, especially with the aim of installing thousands of these machines all over the place. It's a difficult one, as money laundering is one of the easiest justifications governments can use for shutting down such services (whether justified or not).

nwh 14y ago
Isn't it the same as walking into a bank and asking for a cashiers cheque?
- Karunamon 14y ago
  Banks have security cameras out the proverbial wazzu, and every transaction entered is going to be timestamped, audited, tracked, signed, sealed, delivered. Considering the whole point of bitcoin is anonymity (or at least pseudo-anonymity), there's a great privacy benefit to having these at random locations, assuming the makers can clear some of the logistical challenges.
- mootothemax 14y ago
  Isn't it the same as walking into a bank and asking for a cashiers cheque? Does anyone with ill-gotten gains keep them in a bank account? So no.
runn1ng 14y ago
Money laundering is the whole point of bitcoin. </joke>
diminoten 14y ago
I'd say it's no easier to launder money with one of these machines than it is to shoot a man with a gun, and we still have guns.
- mootothemax 14y ago
  I'd say it's no easier to launder money with one of these machines than it is to shoot a man with a gun, and we still have guns. Are there well-funded lobbyists actively campaigning against money laundering regulations? This is a ridiculous argument against an equally ridiculous comparison.
  - diminoten 14y ago
    So because there are people against it, it is therefore easier or harder to shoot someone? No. No matter how many people are for or against guns, they still operate very simply - you pull a trigger, a bullet fires. Simple.
    - mootothemax 14y ago
      So because there are people against it, it is therefore easier or harder to shoot someone? No. No matter how many people are for or against guns, they still operate very simply - you pull a trigger, a bullet fires. Simple. I was highlighting how ridiculous it is to conflate gun control with the topic at hand. I agree with you: people do things, some of which are very, very simple to do. That doesn't affect anything from my initial point: money laundering is one of the easiest justifications governments can use for shutting down such services (whether justified or not).
      - diminoten 14y ago
        Not all comments on Hacker News are said in contrary to their parent comment.
praptak 14y ago
I don't see how this helps launder money. Laundering money is providing a plausible answer to the "Where did this money come from?" question, and "From anonymous donors via bitcoin ATMs" is not a plausible answer.
- mootothemax 14y ago
  I don't see how this helps launder money. Dirty cash -> bitcoin via these machines -> legitimate goods and services -> clean money. "From anonymous donors via bitcoin ATMs" is not a plausible answer. I very much agree with you - and that is not what I meant. It's worth remembering that money laundering is not cheap; getting 50% of the original amount in "clean" money would be an incredible deal. So the aim would be to make use of services that either convert bitcoin to ready goods, or better yet, run a service and create fake customers who pay via bitcoin. It's the same principle as running a second-hand car showroom (although, in the UK at least, that is no longer a realistic option) or currency exchange (I believe this is more difficult, but is still an option in some countries). Both are cash-heavy businesses, making it very easy to mix in dirty cash with clean, and account appropriately. There's a reason why many years ago casinos appealed to mobsters. Edit: Just seen that you're based in Warsaw as well - if you ever fancy meeting up, send me a mail! :)
  - praptak 14y ago
    > Dirty cash -> bitcoin via these machines -> legitimate goods and services -> clean money. Ok, my original thought was that cash is already anonymous, so the first step provides little value laundering-wise. But I see how Bitcoin removes the requirement to deal with cash (for the fake business) while still keeping the anonymity, which in turn makes the hypothetical business much more convenient. Edit: mail sent :)

nwh 14y ago

Isn't it the same as walking into a bank and asking for a cashiers cheque?

Karunamon 14y ago
Banks have security cameras out the proverbial wazzu, and every transaction entered is going to be timestamped, audited, tracked, signed, sealed, delivered. Considering the whole point of bitcoin is anonymity (or at least pseudo-anonymity), there's a great privacy benefit to having these at random locations, assuming the makers can clear some of the logistical challenges.
mootothemax 14y ago
Isn't it the same as walking into a bank and asking for a cashiers cheque? Does anyone with ill-gotten gains keep them in a bank account? So no.

runn1ng 14y ago

Money laundering is the whole point of bitcoin. </joke>

diminoten 14y ago

I'd say it's no easier to launder money with one of these machines than it is to shoot a man with a gun, and we still have guns.

mootothemax 14y ago
I'd say it's no easier to launder money with one of these machines than it is to shoot a man with a gun, and we still have guns. Are there well-funded lobbyists actively campaigning against money laundering regulations? This is a ridiculous argument against an equally ridiculous comparison.
- diminoten 14y ago
  So because there are people against it, it is therefore easier or harder to shoot someone? No. No matter how many people are for or against guns, they still operate very simply - you pull a trigger, a bullet fires. Simple.
  - mootothemax 14y ago
    So because there are people against it, it is therefore easier or harder to shoot someone? No. No matter how many people are for or against guns, they still operate very simply - you pull a trigger, a bullet fires. Simple. I was highlighting how ridiculous it is to conflate gun control with the topic at hand. I agree with you: people do things, some of which are very, very simple to do. That doesn't affect anything from my initial point: money laundering is one of the easiest justifications governments can use for shutting down such services (whether justified or not).
    - diminoten 14y ago
      Not all comments on Hacker News are said in contrary to their parent comment.

praptak 14y ago

I don't see how this helps launder money. Laundering money is providing a plausible answer to the "Where did this money come from?" question, and "From anonymous donors via bitcoin ATMs" is not a plausible answer.

mootothemax 14y ago
I don't see how this helps launder money. Dirty cash -> bitcoin via these machines -> legitimate goods and services -> clean money. "From anonymous donors via bitcoin ATMs" is not a plausible answer. I very much agree with you - and that is not what I meant. It's worth remembering that money laundering is not cheap; getting 50% of the original amount in "clean" money would be an incredible deal. So the aim would be to make use of services that either convert bitcoin to ready goods, or better yet, run a service and create fake customers who pay via bitcoin. It's the same principle as running a second-hand car showroom (although, in the UK at least, that is no longer a realistic option) or currency exchange (I believe this is more difficult, but is still an option in some countries). Both are cash-heavy businesses, making it very easy to mix in dirty cash with clean, and account appropriately. There's a reason why many years ago casinos appealed to mobsters. Edit: Just seen that you're based in Warsaw as well - if you ever fancy meeting up, send me a mail! :)
- praptak 14y ago
  > Dirty cash -> bitcoin via these machines -> legitimate goods and services -> clean money. Ok, my original thought was that cash is already anonymous, so the first step provides little value laundering-wise. But I see how Bitcoin removes the requirement to deal with cash (for the fake business) while still keeping the anonymity, which in turn makes the hypothetical business much more convenient. Edit: mail sent :)