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Quite a large number, I'm afraid. I know a few people who keep hundreds to several thousand+ without spending any in anticipation of a massive buyout (or financ

by eksith 14y ago

Quite a large number, I'm afraid. I know a few people who keep hundreds to several thousand+ without spending any in anticipation of a massive buyout (or financial collapse). These were very early adopters that ran their vid cards 24/7 for years.

danboarder 14y ago
Perhaps things like this ATM (which looks very simple to use) and user-friendly online tools like Coinbase will serve to expand real-world use and the BTC economy as a whole. It would be awesome to see it become an even more stable international alternative currency.
jerguismi 14y ago
Well, it isn't very rational to collect pile of money and then just sit on it until you die. At some point these early adopters are either going to sell, or use their bitcoins.
- betterunix 14y ago
  It is perfectly rational when you know that there are deflationary trends with the money. Sitting on it means you are becoming wealthier. Of course, if everyone does this, the currency will collapse, but that is just the beginning of Bitcoin's problems.
  - oleganza 14y ago
    It will not collapse. It's just the price will stabilize.
    - betterunix 14y ago
      If nobody is willing to trade a currency, the currency is worthless -- also known as a collapse.
      - eru 14y ago
        Why? People are still perfectly willing to buy. Just not willing to sell. That will just lead to higher prices, not collapse.
        betterunix 14y ago
        If nobody is willing to sell, then there is no trade. That makes a currency worthless. Bitcoin is even more vulnerable that gold in that regard, because if Bitcoin stops being used as a currency then there will be no incentive for anyone to run the Bitcoin software -- and then Bitcoin will just die.
        oleganza 14y ago
        You are confusing two causes for "no trading". Collapse will come when no one is willing to buy (e.g. crypto is broken or there is no way to spend/use it). As people anticipate this coming, they'll start selling to anybody who is still willing to buy. The price will drop until no one is willing to buy, at which point the value of commodity will become zero. On the other hand, if many people are willing to buy (in expectation of future increased usefulness), then the price will go up until no one is willing to sell. At which point every holder anticipates some future benefit, cannot buy more from anybody, but has plenty of people willing to buy from him for some price. This situation will stay like that until anyone decides to "use" money by selling it (e.g. to buy a dinner because people need to eat sometimes). No collapse here.
        betterunix 14y ago
        History has shown that when people start hoarding currency, a new currency arises to replace the one being hoarded. A currency is not useful if it is not being traded -- if the benefit of saving your money outweighs the benefit of whatever you would have purchased with it, you'll save it and find something else to trade. In the case of Bitcoin, there is an even greater risk, which is that people will stop bothering to run the Bitcoin software as fewer and fewer people trade their BTC. The problem with your argument is that it ignores the utility of the currency. A currency that nobody is willing to trade is not useful, which is harms the demand for that currency. Bitcoin's only utility is as a currency, and so without people willing to trade BTC for something else, Bitcoin is useless, which makes it worthless. Another way to put it is this: your argument only accounts for speculation, which is not the whole story.
josephagoss 14y ago
The good thing about the price increasing is that the early adopters are more willing to spend BTC and also convert BTC into fiat. This increases the overall value of BTC because as more people who own BTC bought in at a higher price, it will be harder and harder for the price to crash down to levels lower than the average price of BTC purchased. (I argue this based on the psychology of buying BTC at a certain price) Back when the large 2011 crash happened and even now to a slightly lesser degree the average BTC acquired/bought is still low, (i'd wager around $5 for the entire network of BTC still accessible, as a example) As more earlies sell and purchase items, this average will increase, and as it does the possibility for BTC to fall below this average becomes harder and harder.
- eksith 14y ago
  I remember that crash. A couple of those people were freaking out. And I think your price estimate is correct. I'd much rather they start spending them within the BTC economy than cashing in for "real" currency instead. The biggest hurdle for BTC isn't even the hoarding, it's that they hoard just because it's still not seen as a real alternative by most folks so they're waiting for the "realization, spike" in prices (I don't think we're there yet). Few people these days actually hoard cash; instead, they invest in commodities or companies. But these people are hoarding for the value of the currency itself. It's like gold all over again. I must confess though, the first time I heard about BTC, I did take it for just a very elaborate ponzi scheme. The irony is that the hoarding may, if left unchecked, turn it into exactly that.

by eksith 14y ago

danboarder 14y ago

Perhaps things like this ATM (which looks very simple to use) and user-friendly online tools like Coinbase will serve to expand real-world use and the BTC economy as a whole. It would be awesome to see it become an even more stable international alternative currency.

jerguismi 14y ago

Well, it isn't very rational to collect pile of money and then just sit on it until you die. At some point these early adopters are either going to sell, or use their bitcoins.

betterunix 14y ago
It is perfectly rational when you know that there are deflationary trends with the money. Sitting on it means you are becoming wealthier. Of course, if everyone does this, the currency will collapse, but that is just the beginning of Bitcoin's problems.
- oleganza 14y ago
  It will not collapse. It's just the price will stabilize.
  - betterunix 14y ago
    If nobody is willing to trade a currency, the currency is worthless -- also known as a collapse.
    - eru 14y ago
      Why? People are still perfectly willing to buy. Just not willing to sell. That will just lead to higher prices, not collapse.
      - betterunix 14y ago
        If nobody is willing to sell, then there is no trade. That makes a currency worthless. Bitcoin is even more vulnerable that gold in that regard, because if Bitcoin stops being used as a currency then there will be no incentive for anyone to run the Bitcoin software -- and then Bitcoin will just die.
        oleganza 14y ago
        You are confusing two causes for "no trading". Collapse will come when no one is willing to buy (e.g. crypto is broken or there is no way to spend/use it). As people anticipate this coming, they'll start selling to anybody who is still willing to buy. The price will drop until no one is willing to buy, at which point the value of commodity will become zero. On the other hand, if many people are willing to buy (in expectation of future increased usefulness), then the price will go up until no one is willing to sell. At which point every holder anticipates some future benefit, cannot buy more from anybody, but has plenty of people willing to buy from him for some price. This situation will stay like that until anyone decides to "use" money by selling it (e.g. to buy a dinner because people need to eat sometimes). No collapse here.
        betterunix 14y ago
        History has shown that when people start hoarding currency, a new currency arises to replace the one being hoarded. A currency is not useful if it is not being traded -- if the benefit of saving your money outweighs the benefit of whatever you would have purchased with it, you'll save it and find something else to trade. In the case of Bitcoin, there is an even greater risk, which is that people will stop bothering to run the Bitcoin software as fewer and fewer people trade their BTC. The problem with your argument is that it ignores the utility of the currency. A currency that nobody is willing to trade is not useful, which is harms the demand for that currency. Bitcoin's only utility is as a currency, and so without people willing to trade BTC for something else, Bitcoin is useless, which makes it worthless. Another way to put it is this: your argument only accounts for speculation, which is not the whole story.

josephagoss 14y ago

The good thing about the price increasing is that the early adopters are more willing to spend BTC and also convert BTC into fiat. This increases the overall value of BTC because as more people who own BTC bought in at a higher price, it will be harder and harder for the price to crash down to levels lower than the average price of BTC purchased. (I argue this based on the psychology of buying BTC at a certain price) Back when the large 2011 crash happened and even now to a slightly lesser degree the average BTC acquired/bought is still low, (i'd wager around $5 for the entire network of BTC still accessible, as a example) As more earlies sell and purchase items, this average will increase, and as it does the possibility for BTC to fall below this average becomes harder and harder.

eksith 14y ago
I remember that crash. A couple of those people were freaking out. And I think your price estimate is correct. I'd much rather they start spending them within the BTC economy than cashing in for "real" currency instead. The biggest hurdle for BTC isn't even the hoarding, it's that they hoard just because it's still not seen as a real alternative by most folks so they're waiting for the "realization, spike" in prices (I don't think we're there yet). Few people these days actually hoard cash; instead, they invest in commodities or companies. But these people are hoarding for the value of the currency itself. It's like gold all over again. I must confess though, the first time I heard about BTC, I did take it for just a very elaborate ponzi scheme. The irony is that the hoarding may, if left unchecked, turn it into exactly that.