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DT (non-US) and T-Mobile in the US don't operate as a single unit, so the former committing to Firefox doesn't mean anything in the US. As an example iPhone is

DT (non-US) and T-Mobile in the US don't operate as a single unit, so the former committing to Firefox doesn't mean anything in the US. As an example iPhone is available on DT, but not T-Mobile.

mikeash 14y ago
The iPhone's lack of availability on T-Mobile is actually a technical limitation, because T-Mobile uses a very unusual frequency band for 3G that most phones, including the iPhone, don't support. They are changing over to something more common, and will likely get the iPhone soon because of it. Not to argue with anything you're saying, just pointing out that that particular decision was more technical than anything.
- rogerbinns 14y ago
  Definitely a past tense thing, and there isn't anything stopping the sales of iPhones now. Heck they claim there are already ~2 million iPhones on the network already! The "unusual" frequency is also known as AWS bands, and are also used by other carriers and in other countries (only 4 at the moment so not pervasive), although there are now LTE deployments happening in the AWS bands. The frequency retasking that allows a regular GSM iPhone to work is in full swing - http://www.tmonews.com/2013/01/t-mobiles-network-modernization-what-is-it-where-can-i-get-coverage/ http://www.tmonews.com/2013/01/t-mobiles-network-modernizati... - there is even a Twitter account tracking sightings https://twitter.com/UMTS1900 https://twitter.com/UMTS1900 and a map http://airportal.de http://airportal.de When tmobile does start selling the iPhone (rumoured to be a few months out) it will be interesting to see if they piggyback off the parent company or deal with Apple directly. In order to deal with Apple you have comply with minimum order quantities (remember the Sprint $20bn numbers) http://www.asymco.com/2013/01/17/the-iphone-moq/ http://www.asymco.com/2013/01/17/the-iphone-moq/
  - mikeash 14y ago
    Well, people were using iPhones on T-Mobile from day 1. It always worked, but 3G didn't. So, while "working", data speeds were excruciatingly slow. (I actually went the opposite direction for a little while. I had a Nexus One made for T-Mobile which I used on my AT&T account. It had the same problem in reverse, since it only had T-Mobile's 3G frequencies. The phone itself was decent, but the data speeds were a killer.) Anyway, good to hear that it's happening, and thanks for the links. More competition is good, and I'm sure that a T-Mobile iPhone will help.
  - notJim 14y ago
    I had an iPhone 4s on T-Mobile in NYC for about 2 months late last year (I think October–mid December or so), and the whole time, saw a 3G signal about one time (a particular block in the West Village, IIRC.) The rest of the time I was stuck on edge.
wwweston 14y ago
T-Mobile was a sponsor at the Firefox OS app day in Mountain View and had a speaker devote some time to why they thought it was a good thing. While that doesn't necessarily mean a commitment to carrying devices running it, it'd an awful lot of effort to go to if that weren't likely at all.
- rogerbinns 14y ago
  Note that tmobile is moving to a sales model where you pay the full cost of the phone up front (although they do allow explicit 20 month payment plans). The result is cheaper service since it doesn't include the hidden costs of recovering phone subsidies (approximately $20 per month). This will mean that US consumers will be seeing the true hardware price for the first time, and be able to make value judgements. Of course everyone expects the whole thing will fail because Americans are used to cell phones being really cheap, and tmobile has to try to convince people by doing arithmetic on lifetime costs, which is a far harder (and more complicated) sell. I'm extremely sceptical that consumers will pay more for Firefox phones than iPhone and top end Android. And I have no doubt they'd pick Firefox (or anyone else for that matter) for phones that are "free", $50 or similar amounts, but those phones won't exist on tmobile except for feature phones around the $150 mark. Given a choice between a $350 Firefox or Android phone it will be interesting to see what happens, and the consumer will have to strongly consider if they are getting that much value from their purchase.
  - com 14y ago
    I have bought unlocked, new Android phones for less than USD100 in the UK, so I'm not sure I believe that a USD150 phone on US T-mobile will only be a feature phone. ZTE and Huawei are just the beginning of the wave of cheap smart phone providers that I expect to destroy the feature phone as a widely used device in the rich world in the coming years. Granted, the two phones I bought weren't very fast and had smaller screens, but they did have GPS, mobile data and ran all the apps that I tried from the Play store.
    - rogerbinns 14y ago

DT (non-US) and T-Mobile in the US don't operate as a single unit, so the former committing to Firefox doesn't mean anything in the US. As an example iPhone is available on DT, but not T-Mobile.

mikeash 14y ago

The iPhone's lack of availability on T-Mobile is actually a technical limitation, because T-Mobile uses a very unusual frequency band for 3G that most phones, including the iPhone, don't support. They are changing over to something more common, and will likely get the iPhone soon because of it. Not to argue with anything you're saying, just pointing out that that particular decision was more technical than anything.

rogerbinns 14y ago
Definitely a past tense thing, and there isn't anything stopping the sales of iPhones now. Heck they claim there are already ~2 million iPhones on the network already! The "unusual" frequency is also known as AWS bands, and are also used by other carriers and in other countries (only 4 at the moment so not pervasive), although there are now LTE deployments happening in the AWS bands. The frequency retasking that allows a regular GSM iPhone to work is in full swing - http://www.tmonews.com/2013/01/t-mobiles-network-modernization-what-is-it-where-can-i-get-coverage/ http://www.tmonews.com/2013/01/t-mobiles-network-modernizati... - there is even a Twitter account tracking sightings https://twitter.com/UMTS1900 https://twitter.com/UMTS1900 and a map http://airportal.de http://airportal.de When tmobile does start selling the iPhone (rumoured to be a few months out) it will be interesting to see if they piggyback off the parent company or deal with Apple directly. In order to deal with Apple you have comply with minimum order quantities (remember the Sprint $20bn numbers) http://www.asymco.com/2013/01/17/the-iphone-moq/ http://www.asymco.com/2013/01/17/the-iphone-moq/
- mikeash 14y ago
  Well, people were using iPhones on T-Mobile from day 1. It always worked, but 3G didn't. So, while "working", data speeds were excruciatingly slow. (I actually went the opposite direction for a little while. I had a Nexus One made for T-Mobile which I used on my AT&T account. It had the same problem in reverse, since it only had T-Mobile's 3G frequencies. The phone itself was decent, but the data speeds were a killer.) Anyway, good to hear that it's happening, and thanks for the links. More competition is good, and I'm sure that a T-Mobile iPhone will help.
- notJim 14y ago
  I had an iPhone 4s on T-Mobile in NYC for about 2 months late last year (I think October–mid December or so), and the whole time, saw a 3G signal about one time (a particular block in the West Village, IIRC.) The rest of the time I was stuck on edge.

wwweston 14y ago

T-Mobile was a sponsor at the Firefox OS app day in Mountain View and had a speaker devote some time to why they thought it was a good thing. While that doesn't necessarily mean a commitment to carrying devices running it, it'd an awful lot of effort to go to if that weren't likely at all.

rogerbinns 14y ago
Note that tmobile is moving to a sales model where you pay the full cost of the phone up front (although they do allow explicit 20 month payment plans). The result is cheaper service since it doesn't include the hidden costs of recovering phone subsidies (approximately $20 per month). This will mean that US consumers will be seeing the true hardware price for the first time, and be able to make value judgements. Of course everyone expects the whole thing will fail because Americans are used to cell phones being really cheap, and tmobile has to try to convince people by doing arithmetic on lifetime costs, which is a far harder (and more complicated) sell. I'm extremely sceptical that consumers will pay more for Firefox phones than iPhone and top end Android. And I have no doubt they'd pick Firefox (or anyone else for that matter) for phones that are "free", $50 or similar amounts, but those phones won't exist on tmobile except for feature phones around the $150 mark. Given a choice between a $350 Firefox or Android phone it will be interesting to see what happens, and the consumer will have to strongly consider if they are getting that much value from their purchase.
- com 14y ago
  I have bought unlocked, new Android phones for less than USD100 in the UK, so I'm not sure I believe that a USD150 phone on US T-mobile will only be a feature phone. ZTE and Huawei are just the beginning of the wave of cheap smart phone providers that I expect to destroy the feature phone as a widely used device in the rich world in the coming years. Granted, the two phones I bought weren't very fast and had smaller screens, but they did have GPS, mobile data and ran all the apps that I tried from the Play store.
  - rogerbinns 14y ago