4 ms·

I see things the other way when it comes to culture -- it's the end result of people finding ways to work together, and if a candidate can't fit in with the cul

by donw 14y ago

I see things the other way when it comes to culture -- it's the end result of people finding ways to work together, and if a candidate can't fit in with the culture of the existing team, then they're not going to be a good hire, no matter how brilliant they are. I once interviewed an otherwise brilliant developer that was militantly anti-TDD and anti-pairing, both of which are attributes that both myself and my team considered to be essential parts of the business of building software; working as a part of an engineering team is about more than just writing code. Considering cultural fit helps you avoid hiring prima-donnas that are unwilling to be a member of the team, and it's also a good way for a candidate to know whether or not they will be happy working with a given company. That kid wouldn't have been happy working with us, and the team didn't want to work with him. He was a competent developer, but not a good fit for the culture of the team, and not hiring him on that basis was a good decision all around.

tptacek 14y ago
See, being an anti-TDD person applying for a TDD team (I'm anti-TDD, btw) or anti-pairing on a pairing team are great examples of legitimate "culture" filtering. Thanks!
- protomyth 14y ago
  I wouldn't call any of that culture[1], the candidate doesn't believe in the same best practices or style of development as the team. It is much easier to write and understand[2]. 1) [not directed at tptacek but a comment in general] I really, really detest all this use of the word culture when it is nothing more than clique behavior from high school wrapped in some passive aggressive defense. We get it, you want ego boosting over getting stuff done and won't hire old folks (35+) or people different from you. You care more about drinking buddies than actual friggin finishing and going home to real friends and family to recharge. Real culture is enriching and amazing in its diversity. You are calling a Yugo your Ferrari. 2) and prove in court
  - tptacek 14y ago
    I couple days ago I wrote something to the effect of "There are genuine culture fit issues in startups, but the term culture fit has become so poisoned that we're probably going to have to invent another term for them", and this is exactly what I meant.
    - donw 14y ago
      Maybe I'm a bit weird because I live somewhere between Japan and Germany, but I've always seen culture fit within a company as being very similar to cultural assimilation when moving somewhere new -- e.g. "when in rome..." When I'm in Japan, I'm still very American, but my sense of personal space has changed because it works differently in Tokyo. Likewise, I notice all kinds of details that were completely invisible before, but that are important in Japan. This doesn't mean any of my fundamental beliefs needed to change to suit Japan, nor does it mean that I'm entirely satisfied with the way the Japanese run things, but I've managed to find a niche for myself where I can be happy without driving everybody around me too crazy. Other people have had more or less luck. Some people just adore every aspect of Japanese culture and never want to leave, and a great many more that end up either going home, or living a bubble of foreign friends and bars in Roppongi. I'm somewhere in the middle. When I think of cultural fit at a company, I think of the same sort of process. You either identify with the evolved culture and practices of the company enough to be happy and productive, or you don't. If you don't fit in, that's not a bad thing. It's the same as coming to Japan and discovering that you really don't belong there after all.
      - protomyth 14y ago
        That's real culture. What seems to pass for "culture fit" at companies is either style / process difference of beliefs (at best) or high school cliques (at worse).
ardit33 14y ago
Did you just call all developers that don't like TDD and pairing as prima donas? Do you release that's probably 90% of engineers out there, and maybe 95% of the good ones. You can work and make great software without using heavy handed processes like TDD and Pairing, which in my opinion it only helps junior/inexperienced developers a bit, but hampers the productivity of the good ones. But yea, it seems that the place wouldn't be a fit for him, but there is no need to call him a prima dona. He was right to stick with his guns, and you guys stick with yours, but keep in mind that you are limiting yourself to a very small subset of engineers that both like TDD/Pairing and are good at what they do.
- tptacek 14y ago
  No, that's not what he said at all.
- donw 14y ago
  Not at all. He just wasn't a good fit for the team, and nor was the team a good fit for him. Prima-donna programmers tend to be vain, demanding, and incapable of receiving or acting on constructive criticism. More often than not, they're also not particularly productive, either. Whether or not you do TDD is unrelated to any of those personality traits, and I've interacted both with excellent developers that had a myriad of reasons to not test, as well as horrible prima-donnas that were religious about TDD, but only if you did it the One True Way That Only They Could Understand.

by donw 14y ago

tptacek 14y ago

See, being an anti-TDD person applying for a TDD team (I'm anti-TDD, btw) or anti-pairing on a pairing team are great examples of legitimate "culture" filtering. Thanks!

protomyth 14y ago
I wouldn't call any of that culture[1], the candidate doesn't believe in the same best practices or style of development as the team. It is much easier to write and understand[2]. 1) [not directed at tptacek but a comment in general] I really, really detest all this use of the word culture when it is nothing more than clique behavior from high school wrapped in some passive aggressive defense. We get it, you want ego boosting over getting stuff done and won't hire old folks (35+) or people different from you. You care more about drinking buddies than actual friggin finishing and going home to real friends and family to recharge. Real culture is enriching and amazing in its diversity. You are calling a Yugo your Ferrari. 2) and prove in court
- tptacek 14y ago
  I couple days ago I wrote something to the effect of "There are genuine culture fit issues in startups, but the term culture fit has become so poisoned that we're probably going to have to invent another term for them", and this is exactly what I meant.
  - donw 14y ago
    Maybe I'm a bit weird because I live somewhere between Japan and Germany, but I've always seen culture fit within a company as being very similar to cultural assimilation when moving somewhere new -- e.g. "when in rome..." When I'm in Japan, I'm still very American, but my sense of personal space has changed because it works differently in Tokyo. Likewise, I notice all kinds of details that were completely invisible before, but that are important in Japan. This doesn't mean any of my fundamental beliefs needed to change to suit Japan, nor does it mean that I'm entirely satisfied with the way the Japanese run things, but I've managed to find a niche for myself where I can be happy without driving everybody around me too crazy. Other people have had more or less luck. Some people just adore every aspect of Japanese culture and never want to leave, and a great many more that end up either going home, or living a bubble of foreign friends and bars in Roppongi. I'm somewhere in the middle. When I think of cultural fit at a company, I think of the same sort of process. You either identify with the evolved culture and practices of the company enough to be happy and productive, or you don't. If you don't fit in, that's not a bad thing. It's the same as coming to Japan and discovering that you really don't belong there after all.
    - protomyth 14y ago
      That's real culture. What seems to pass for "culture fit" at companies is either style / process difference of beliefs (at best) or high school cliques (at worse).

ardit33 14y ago

Did you just call all developers that don't like TDD and pairing as prima donas? Do you release that's probably 90% of engineers out there, and maybe 95% of the good ones. You can work and make great software without using heavy handed processes like TDD and Pairing, which in my opinion it only helps junior/inexperienced developers a bit, but hampers the productivity of the good ones. But yea, it seems that the place wouldn't be a fit for him, but there is no need to call him a prima dona. He was right to stick with his guns, and you guys stick with yours, but keep in mind that you are limiting yourself to a very small subset of engineers that both like TDD/Pairing and are good at what they do.

tptacek 14y ago
No, that's not what he said at all.
donw 14y ago
Not at all. He just wasn't a good fit for the team, and nor was the team a good fit for him. Prima-donna programmers tend to be vain, demanding, and incapable of receiving or acting on constructive criticism. More often than not, they're also not particularly productive, either. Whether or not you do TDD is unrelated to any of those personality traits, and I've interacted both with excellent developers that had a myriad of reasons to not test, as well as horrible prima-donnas that were religious about TDD, but only if you did it the One True Way That Only They Could Understand.