5 ms·

China admits pollution-linked 'cancer villages'

41 points by stfu 14y ago

lifeisstillgood 14y ago
It seems utterly tragic that humans simply refuse to learn from the history of others. Can anyone point to a country that is under-going catch up development that does not go through this nightmare? It is not inevitable. These chemicals are known, understood, and indeed replaced in similar factories across the globe. So what drives Bhopal, or Chinese cancer villages or vanishing Russian seas? Is it you can't con an honest man and you can't pollute under an honest government?
- fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
  I gather that the Chinese value a person's life differently from westerners. >>what drives Bhopal, or Chinese cancer villages or vanishing Russian seas? Greed, ignorance, foolishness, what else? >>Is it you can't con an honest man and you can't pollute under an honest government? I think it remains an open question. If there was ever an honest government, I'd bet it didn't last long.
  - lifeisstillgood 14y ago
    >> I gather that the Chinese value a person's life differently from westerners. Chinese people do not value their lives or their children's lives any different to any other country on Earth. The Chinese government may value the lives of its people less than say the US administration. But that's mostly because of tort law and ballot boxes. Not that we make inherently nicer politicians. I know that's probably what you meant, just wanted to be more precise.
    - fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
      I wouldn't disagree with what you said. The CCP definitely gets away with more than the US Gov't in many respects. I could add that the Chinese people I've met have a wonderful affection for children, especially babies. I spent a fair amount of time over there a few years ago. But, there are a lot of cultural differences that are hard to express in an HN post.
      - lifeisstillgood 14y ago
        >> hard to express in an HN post This is just an idle thought, but how can it be made possible / easier to express those differences. Is HN lacking a short hand, should we be more circumspect, are there images that would help? Back stories? Back stories seem most likely. Anyway idle thoughts with no real brain power
- AlexanderDhoore 14y ago
  "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlons_razor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlons_razor
- egor83 14y ago
  > you can't pollute under an honest government I'd say not "honest" but "answerable", those that can be held accountable by the society. I can't imagine anything like Watergate or Clinton impeachment attempt in the present-day or Soviet Russia. Chinese people managed to remove one particularly corrupt Party official recently IIRC, but the whole structure is still too opaque and out-of-control. So, free press, independent courts and the ability to remove people that screwed up. If you can suffer as a result of your mistakes, you'd be more careful, and vice versa. Now, on a related note - how was held responsible for the 2008 crisis, the pyramid of subprime mortgages etc? Or for the Iraq War, which was started on the premise that Saddam had WMD, which he in fact hadn't? If the USA keep going like this, the future might be very interesting for them.
  - lifeisstillgood 14y ago
    As for 2008, rating sub primes as AAA and even Iraq, wait for tort law to settle.
- OGinparadise 14y ago
  The government probably sees it as a small price for industrialization. Machiavelli and all. On the other hand, people will suffer but probably live longer thanks to medicines they can now afford.
- srean 14y ago
  I am surprised that you even know about Bhopal ! A part of the tragedy is that its the largest industrial disaster and yet hardly anyone knows about it.
  - lifeisstillgood 14y ago
    It was headline news in the 80s - I guess 30 years tends to create a generation who simy don't know - try windscale for example
    - srean 14y ago
      It also depends what kind of a narrative you can build around it. Chernobyl is easy: "Russian technology, bad stupid unsafe". When a US corporation is involved (and I expect this to be contested, all I can do is point to http://old.studentsforbhopal.org/WhatHappened.htm#DisasterDesign http://old.studentsforbhopal.org/WhatHappened.htm#DisasterDe... and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster and ) it is awkward, easier to look away and forget. And it matters who got affected, not so much "how many"
  - fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
    I thought everyone knew about Bhopal. Maybe I need to re-calibrate my worldview. Now that I think about it. Yes, I do.
- pasbesoin 14y ago
  Because technology does not exist and evolve in isolation. It is part and parcel of society.
hakaaaaak 14y ago
China is no stranger to affecting the health of their population through gross negligence. Ever hear of the Plasma Economy?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_Economy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_Economy But in all fairness, you could point to similar tragedies around the world. How about Greece's government leading its people to believe it would take care of their health, and failing: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-10/greek-public-health-tragedy-looms-academics-write-in-lancet.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-10/greek-public-health...
- fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
  I had not heard of the Plasma Economy. That is horrible, that's just unbridled greed.
mmphosis 14y ago
Radical Simplicity: Small Footprints on a Finite Earth by Jim Merkel http://www.radicalsimplicity.org/radical_simplicity.html http://www.radicalsimplicity.org/radical_simplicity.html an excerpt from page 5 ... a computer uses 1000 substances, including 350 different hazardous chemicals in it's manufacturing processes. (6) computers' designed obsolescence earned 20 million machines an early retirement in 1998. you also remember reading about the rural rice growing town of guiyu, china, which has become an electronic waste (e-waste) processing center. women and children earn $1.50 per day to strip computers down to components. soil and water tests there have revealed lead levels 2400 times greater than those allowed by the world health organization's guidelines. several other heavy metals tested far exceeded the environmental protection agency standards: barium by 10 times; tin by 152 times; chromium by 1338 times. a year after the operation started, the village had to truck in water. many of the substances are known carcinogens or cause birth defects and skin and lung irritation.(7) 6,7 puckett, jim and ted smith (editors.) Exporting Harm: The High-Tech Trashing of Asia http://www.ban.org/library-page/order-films/exporting-harm-the-high-tech-trashing-of-asia/ http://www.ban.org/library-page/order-films/exporting-harm-t... seattle: Basal Action Network, 2002. a joint report issued with the silicon valley toxics coalition http://svtc.org/resources/reports/ http://svtc.org/resources/reports/
roylez 14y ago
As a Chinese HN reader, I have to say something. It is not surprising at all that all these happen in China. Food is poisonous, air is unbreathable, rivers are smelly. All this attributes to one single fact, this government only wants to loot from the country. The people have never had the right to made a single vote to select a president for the country. If people do not show "necessary obedience", they would have to face police or tanks. It is even a total waste of time for me to write this comment here because I am writing about things that would never change unless the country is overthrown.
- eqreqeq 14y ago
  Serious question: What would the the least of two evils? Overthrowing a government can lead to a lot of misery. Famine is the first one that comes to mind.
grindall 14y ago
Before we blame China let us all be reminded that the per-capita pollution of Americans is much worse than of the Chinese.
melling 14y ago
Two new initiatives would help: 1. Start taking steps so the environment is much cleaner within 10 years. 2. Start an initiative to better treat and cure cancer(s) within the next 10 years.

41 points by stfu 14y ago

It seems utterly tragic that humans simply refuse to learn from the history of others. Can anyone point to a country that is under-going catch up development that does not go through this nightmare? It is not inevitable. These chemicals are known, understood, and indeed replaced in similar factories across the globe. So what drives Bhopal, or Chinese cancer villages or vanishing Russian seas? Is it you can't con an honest man and you can't pollute under an honest government?

fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
I gather that the Chinese value a person's life differently from westerners. >>what drives Bhopal, or Chinese cancer villages or vanishing Russian seas? Greed, ignorance, foolishness, what else? >>Is it you can't con an honest man and you can't pollute under an honest government? I think it remains an open question. If there was ever an honest government, I'd bet it didn't last long.
- lifeisstillgood 14y ago
  >> I gather that the Chinese value a person's life differently from westerners. Chinese people do not value their lives or their children's lives any different to any other country on Earth. The Chinese government may value the lives of its people less than say the US administration. But that's mostly because of tort law and ballot boxes. Not that we make inherently nicer politicians. I know that's probably what you meant, just wanted to be more precise.
  - fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
    I wouldn't disagree with what you said. The CCP definitely gets away with more than the US Gov't in many respects. I could add that the Chinese people I've met have a wonderful affection for children, especially babies. I spent a fair amount of time over there a few years ago. But, there are a lot of cultural differences that are hard to express in an HN post.
    - lifeisstillgood 14y ago
      >> hard to express in an HN post This is just an idle thought, but how can it be made possible / easier to express those differences. Is HN lacking a short hand, should we be more circumspect, are there images that would help? Back stories? Back stories seem most likely. Anyway idle thoughts with no real brain power
AlexanderDhoore 14y ago
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlons_razor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlons_razor
egor83 14y ago
> you can't pollute under an honest government I'd say not "honest" but "answerable", those that can be held accountable by the society. I can't imagine anything like Watergate or Clinton impeachment attempt in the present-day or Soviet Russia. Chinese people managed to remove one particularly corrupt Party official recently IIRC, but the whole structure is still too opaque and out-of-control. So, free press, independent courts and the ability to remove people that screwed up. If you can suffer as a result of your mistakes, you'd be more careful, and vice versa. Now, on a related note - how was held responsible for the 2008 crisis, the pyramid of subprime mortgages etc? Or for the Iraq War, which was started on the premise that Saddam had WMD, which he in fact hadn't? If the USA keep going like this, the future might be very interesting for them.
- lifeisstillgood 14y ago
  As for 2008, rating sub primes as AAA and even Iraq, wait for tort law to settle.
OGinparadise 14y ago
The government probably sees it as a small price for industrialization. Machiavelli and all. On the other hand, people will suffer but probably live longer thanks to medicines they can now afford.
srean 14y ago
I am surprised that you even know about Bhopal ! A part of the tragedy is that its the largest industrial disaster and yet hardly anyone knows about it.
- lifeisstillgood 14y ago
  It was headline news in the 80s - I guess 30 years tends to create a generation who simy don't know - try windscale for example
  - srean 14y ago
    It also depends what kind of a narrative you can build around it. Chernobyl is easy: "Russian technology, bad stupid unsafe". When a US corporation is involved (and I expect this to be contested, all I can do is point to http://old.studentsforbhopal.org/WhatHappened.htm#DisasterDesign http://old.studentsforbhopal.org/WhatHappened.htm#DisasterDe... and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster and ) it is awkward, easier to look away and forget. And it matters who got affected, not so much "how many"
- fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
  I thought everyone knew about Bhopal. Maybe I need to re-calibrate my worldview. Now that I think about it. Yes, I do.
pasbesoin 14y ago
Because technology does not exist and evolve in isolation. It is part and parcel of society.

hakaaaaak 14y ago

China is no stranger to affecting the health of their population through gross negligence. Ever hear of the Plasma Economy?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_Economy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_Economy But in all fairness, you could point to similar tragedies around the world. How about Greece's government leading its people to believe it would take care of their health, and failing: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-10/greek-public-health-tragedy-looms-academics-write-in-lancet.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-10/greek-public-health...

fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
I had not heard of the Plasma Economy. That is horrible, that's just unbridled greed.

mmphosis 14y ago

Radical Simplicity: Small Footprints on a Finite Earth by Jim Merkel http://www.radicalsimplicity.org/radical_simplicity.html http://www.radicalsimplicity.org/radical_simplicity.html an excerpt from page 5 ... a computer uses 1000 substances, including 350 different hazardous chemicals in it's manufacturing processes. (6) computers' designed obsolescence earned 20 million machines an early retirement in 1998. you also remember reading about the rural rice growing town of guiyu, china, which has become an electronic waste (e-waste) processing center. women and children earn $1.50 per day to strip computers down to components. soil and water tests there have revealed lead levels 2400 times greater than those allowed by the world health organization's guidelines. several other heavy metals tested far exceeded the environmental protection agency standards: barium by 10 times; tin by 152 times; chromium by 1338 times. a year after the operation started, the village had to truck in water. many of the substances are known carcinogens or cause birth defects and skin and lung irritation.(7) 6,7 puckett, jim and ted smith (editors.) Exporting Harm: The High-Tech Trashing of Asia http://www.ban.org/library-page/order-films/exporting-harm-the-high-tech-trashing-of-asia/ http://www.ban.org/library-page/order-films/exporting-harm-t... seattle: Basal Action Network, 2002. a joint report issued with the silicon valley toxics coalition http://svtc.org/resources/reports/ http://svtc.org/resources/reports/

roylez 14y ago

As a Chinese HN reader, I have to say something. It is not surprising at all that all these happen in China. Food is poisonous, air is unbreathable, rivers are smelly. All this attributes to one single fact, this government only wants to loot from the country. The people have never had the right to made a single vote to select a president for the country. If people do not show "necessary obedience", they would have to face police or tanks. It is even a total waste of time for me to write this comment here because I am writing about things that would never change unless the country is overthrown.

eqreqeq 14y ago
Serious question: What would the the least of two evils? Overthrowing a government can lead to a lot of misery. Famine is the first one that comes to mind.

grindall 14y ago

Before we blame China let us all be reminded that the per-capita pollution of Americans is much worse than of the Chinese.

melling 14y ago

Two new initiatives would help: 1. Start taking steps so the environment is much cleaner within 10 years. 2. Start an initiative to better treat and cure cancer(s) within the next 10 years.