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I think there's a ton of this kind of communication going on that we don't realize. I have been a practitioner of QiGong for about 9 months and it has opened me

I think there's a ton of this kind of communication going on that we don't realize. I have been a practitioner of QiGong for about 9 months and it has opened me up to a whole different dimension of information that is passed between living things. I think much more study is needed on these methods of energy transferrence between living organisms. These kinds of subtle communications make up a dimension of the human experience that can only be consciously experience by being actively cultivated and the main stream scientific community has bound itself to a set of ideological assumptions (IMHO inhereted from the Christian church) that deny the existence of these dimensions of human experience and so do not respect their cultivation or deem them worthy of study. This is going to become more of an issue the closer our technological interfaces interact with our senses. These assumptions about what we are, how we communicate, and how we interact with the physical/spiritual world form the base assumptions underlying the future course of our evolution and progress. What happens if by augmenting/modifying one sense we cut ourselves off from another that informs us subconsciously?

purplelobster 14y ago
Scientific research is by no means tied to Christian assumptions, I don't know where you're getting this conspiracy theory from. Do you think humans communicate with other things through electromagnetic fields? Then tell us of an experiment that shows this. What is the mechanism for this communication? Asian mysticism is deeply traditional and faith based, just a different kind of faith (placebo based). If these types of communications are so subtle that we're hardly aware of them, then that means that they are in fact weaker than the placebo effect. People are convinced they spoke to God and were abducted by aliens, why should I believe that you can sense subtle magnetic fields?
- ante_annum 14y ago
  -In many ways, I think Christian assumptions bolster scientific research. Of course, there are the luddites, but I think that the concept that there is a rational, infinite God gives us two bases for research: 1) The universe is rational, and so we can apply strict logical rules to discover it, and 2) we will never run out of things to discover.
- Alex3917 14y ago
  "Scientific research is by no means tied to Christian assumptions, I don't know where you're getting this conspiracy theory from." I haven't read it, but there is a history book called The Saviour of Science that's all about the role of Christianity in shaping modern scientific assumptions.
- blendergasket 14y ago
  "Scientific research is by no means tied to Christian assumptions, I don't know where you're getting this conspiracy theory from." Alchemy was actively frowned upon by the church, as was witchcraft of all kinds. People who worked in these traditions were burned at the stake and sentenced to death. Alchemists, like Newton, got their harder science published but not their Alchemical work. Other Alchemists/Magicians got burned to death for their work, like Bruno. There was a very strong disincentive to publish the more spiritual work, and the work that might have related to the convergence of science and the spiritual. So people who were actively engaged in science were actively engaged in these studies and a.) were censured, b.) weren't able to get them published. c.) were burned at the stake This was because they didn't fit into the Christian set of assumptions, which were enforced by torture, death and censure. So the texts that form the groundwork for our scientific understanding of the world leave out a whole dimension of the thinking of the people who wrote them, who were either unable to publish that part or afraid for their heads. Asian mysticism is deeply traditional and faith based, just a different kind of faith (placebo based). Everything is faith based unless it's actually rigorously tested. Your assertion that my experience is a placebo effect is based on your faith in Qi being unreal. Many studies have been done on acupuncture that have shown very real benefits. If these types of communications are so subtle that we're hardly aware of them, then that means that they are in fact weaker than the placebo effect. They're not so subtle if you train yourself to be aware of them. But to train yourself to be aware of them you can't have faith in their nonexistence. People are convinced they spoke to God and were abducted by aliens, why should I believe that you can sense subtle magnetic fields? Calling people who have beliefs that don't fit into your philosophical assumptions about how the world works delusional is both hubristic and counterproductive in that it turns science into something like a religion and defines the boundary conditions of what is and is not allowed to be studied, which actively inhibits our getting a clear view of the world.
  - purplelobster 14y ago
    Acupuncture is difficult to study, because how do you administer placebo acupuncture to a control group? Until someone figured it out, you would see these perceived benefits and assume that acupuncture is working. When they eventually figured out that you can administer a placebo by essentially faking a needle entry with a pinch, they found that the placebo worked just as well as the actual acupuncture. For that matter, you're the one making claims here about Qi, so you provide the data. The burden of proof is not on me. If you're saying that people who think they're talking to God, or have been abducted by aliens might be right, then I have no further desire to try and have a rational discussion with you.
Steuard 14y ago
The issue here, speaking as a physicist, is that the range over which significant information can be transmitted this way is very small, because the strength of the interaction is very weak. (If plants or bees routinely carried large charges, we'd have known it ages ago.) I'd be surprised if any of these effects were detectible (even to a tiny bee) more than a handspan or two away from a flower, for instance. So at best, two animals standing a few inches from each other might have some subtle extra ability to exchange information... but if you're bigger than a bee, why not just touch?
zeidrich 14y ago
You just have to be careful when you talk about study. A lot of study into this sort of thing is based on a lot of feelings and subjective intangible information. Our minds are quite adept at making connections that don't exist, and at filling in holes where we're missing data. We can fabricate things that fill in those holes, and if everyone sees the same holes, and the same fabrication fills the hole fine enough, it's easy to believe that fabrication is the truth. One should recognizes the holes, and leave them to be holes until he can prove otherwise. I can accept that information can be passed between living things in ways we don't currently understand. I would sooner believe a little story on bees identifying flowers through detection of differently charged petals. I am less likely to use this as a reason to believe a whole line of mysticism/vitalism that has it's own doctrine on sexual behavior, claims to treat cancer, impart superhuman strength, and has a history that has changed with political and cultural whims. Not to say that there is nothing correct or useful coming from QiGong, but that each of those things should be tested and evaluated individually. It's short sighted to accept the entire doctrine because parts of it fit. Science actually often argues for forces we don't understand. Take a look at gravity, we still don't know why it works, we make up ideas about fields, or gravitons, or spacetime, but these are all just tools to model the behavior. We know more massive objects attract less massive objects, but how are they connected to do that attracting in the first place? Quantum Entanglement is an interesting thing too, is information transmitted at all? What is the meaning of information? Science asks so many questions, like what is space? Do we actually exist in 3 dimensions? What science tries its hardest to avoid is explaining away the unanswered questions by filling in the holes with answers that just 'fit' without any way to validate the claim.

purplelobster 14y ago

Scientific research is by no means tied to Christian assumptions, I don't know where you're getting this conspiracy theory from. Do you think humans communicate with other things through electromagnetic fields? Then tell us of an experiment that shows this. What is the mechanism for this communication? Asian mysticism is deeply traditional and faith based, just a different kind of faith (placebo based). If these types of communications are so subtle that we're hardly aware of them, then that means that they are in fact weaker than the placebo effect. People are convinced they spoke to God and were abducted by aliens, why should I believe that you can sense subtle magnetic fields?

ante_annum 14y ago
-In many ways, I think Christian assumptions bolster scientific research. Of course, there are the luddites, but I think that the concept that there is a rational, infinite God gives us two bases for research: 1) The universe is rational, and so we can apply strict logical rules to discover it, and 2) we will never run out of things to discover.
Alex3917 14y ago
"Scientific research is by no means tied to Christian assumptions, I don't know where you're getting this conspiracy theory from." I haven't read it, but there is a history book called The Saviour of Science that's all about the role of Christianity in shaping modern scientific assumptions.
blendergasket 14y ago
"Scientific research is by no means tied to Christian assumptions, I don't know where you're getting this conspiracy theory from." Alchemy was actively frowned upon by the church, as was witchcraft of all kinds. People who worked in these traditions were burned at the stake and sentenced to death. Alchemists, like Newton, got their harder science published but not their Alchemical work. Other Alchemists/Magicians got burned to death for their work, like Bruno. There was a very strong disincentive to publish the more spiritual work, and the work that might have related to the convergence of science and the spiritual. So people who were actively engaged in science were actively engaged in these studies and a.) were censured, b.) weren't able to get them published. c.) were burned at the stake This was because they didn't fit into the Christian set of assumptions, which were enforced by torture, death and censure. So the texts that form the groundwork for our scientific understanding of the world leave out a whole dimension of the thinking of the people who wrote them, who were either unable to publish that part or afraid for their heads. Asian mysticism is deeply traditional and faith based, just a different kind of faith (placebo based). Everything is faith based unless it's actually rigorously tested. Your assertion that my experience is a placebo effect is based on your faith in Qi being unreal. Many studies have been done on acupuncture that have shown very real benefits. If these types of communications are so subtle that we're hardly aware of them, then that means that they are in fact weaker than the placebo effect. They're not so subtle if you train yourself to be aware of them. But to train yourself to be aware of them you can't have faith in their nonexistence. People are convinced they spoke to God and were abducted by aliens, why should I believe that you can sense subtle magnetic fields? Calling people who have beliefs that don't fit into your philosophical assumptions about how the world works delusional is both hubristic and counterproductive in that it turns science into something like a religion and defines the boundary conditions of what is and is not allowed to be studied, which actively inhibits our getting a clear view of the world.
- purplelobster 14y ago
  Acupuncture is difficult to study, because how do you administer placebo acupuncture to a control group? Until someone figured it out, you would see these perceived benefits and assume that acupuncture is working. When they eventually figured out that you can administer a placebo by essentially faking a needle entry with a pinch, they found that the placebo worked just as well as the actual acupuncture. For that matter, you're the one making claims here about Qi, so you provide the data. The burden of proof is not on me. If you're saying that people who think they're talking to God, or have been abducted by aliens might be right, then I have no further desire to try and have a rational discussion with you.

Steuard 14y ago

The issue here, speaking as a physicist, is that the range over which significant information can be transmitted this way is very small, because the strength of the interaction is very weak. (If plants or bees routinely carried large charges, we'd have known it ages ago.) I'd be surprised if any of these effects were detectible (even to a tiny bee) more than a handspan or two away from a flower, for instance. So at best, two animals standing a few inches from each other might have some subtle extra ability to exchange information... but if you're bigger than a bee, why not just touch?

zeidrich 14y ago

You just have to be careful when you talk about study. A lot of study into this sort of thing is based on a lot of feelings and subjective intangible information. Our minds are quite adept at making connections that don't exist, and at filling in holes where we're missing data. We can fabricate things that fill in those holes, and if everyone sees the same holes, and the same fabrication fills the hole fine enough, it's easy to believe that fabrication is the truth. One should recognizes the holes, and leave them to be holes until he can prove otherwise. I can accept that information can be passed between living things in ways we don't currently understand. I would sooner believe a little story on bees identifying flowers through detection of differently charged petals. I am less likely to use this as a reason to believe a whole line of mysticism/vitalism that has it's own doctrine on sexual behavior, claims to treat cancer, impart superhuman strength, and has a history that has changed with political and cultural whims. Not to say that there is nothing correct or useful coming from QiGong, but that each of those things should be tested and evaluated individually. It's short sighted to accept the entire doctrine because parts of it fit. Science actually often argues for forces we don't understand. Take a look at gravity, we still don't know why it works, we make up ideas about fields, or gravitons, or spacetime, but these are all just tools to model the behavior. We know more massive objects attract less massive objects, but how are they connected to do that attracting in the first place? Quantum Entanglement is an interesting thing too, is information transmitted at all? What is the meaning of information? Science asks so many questions, like what is space? Do we actually exist in 3 dimensions? What science tries its hardest to avoid is explaining away the unanswered questions by filling in the holes with answers that just 'fit' without any way to validate the claim.