4 ms·

At what price point? If you are looking for good developers at or near the "market" you will probably not find them. Anyone who has been in the industry for a

At what price point? If you are looking for good developers at or near the "market" you will probably not find them. Anyone who has been in the industry for awhile and is very competent will know they are generally worth more.

tapatio 14y ago
Exactly.
netcan 14y ago
Under that definition there is no such thing as a shortage.
- stuaxo 14y ago
  Not true, you'll get to a point where however much you pay you'll be interviewing people who can't do the job, as opposed to paying more and finding somebody who is capable.
  - rbanffy 14y ago
    You are then comparing apples to oranges. Hiring someone who can't do the job for less than someone who could is not a very smart decision. I remember Scott Adams using the word "managerish" to describe decisions like this.
- DamnYuppie 14y ago
  That is the point I was trying to make. I don't believe their is a true shortage of talented workers, but I do believe large companies state that there is as a means to drive down wages. H1-B Visa just happen to be the handy hammer they use to do it with.
  - netcan 14y ago
    "Shortage" in an economy is expressed as higher prices. In almost any cases you will be able to find more workers if you are willing to pay an unlimited amount. There is no way of determining the "correct" price. The reverse is also true. More potential employees in the marketplace lowers salaries. If you take "you could find employees at a higher salary" as a proof that the shortage doesn't exist you'll virtually always have that proof. Under that definition shortages don't exist which feels like some sort of semantic trickery.
  - avemuri 14y ago
    If companies are hiring workers who can't do the job just because they're cheaper, they're only hurting themselves. I'd imagine it's an unsustainable strategy. If companies are hiring workers who can do the job and are willing to do it for less than domestic workers, why is that wrong?
rbanffy 14y ago
Everything points to the conclusion that there are both a shortage of cheap labor and a shortage of well-paid positions for tech workers.
mikeash 14y ago
At the price point we can afford to pay based on the rates our clients will pay us.
- mikeash 14y ago
  I realized this was way too flippant. To elaborate, we're paying around the same as what everybody is paying, and a candidate with similar experience and skills to my own would make the same I do. It's rare to have someone turn us down due to pay. The people we want generally don't apply in the first place because they already have a job they like.
potatolicious 14y ago
What sector of the industry do you work in? Here in NYC startup-land we have no trouble finding talent at "market" rates. Granted, market-rate for an engineer with even just a few years of experience and up-to-date tech skills is $150K-200K total comp. I've noticed that the H-1B discussions tend to be extremely polarized, and it reflects the bimodal distribution of the tech industry. There's the highly-paid glam side (see: Google, Facebook, etc) where comp is high and you meet $200K H-1B engineers around every corner. And then there's the bodyshop consultancy side of the industry, where cheap H-1Bs are brought in by the planeload and shopped out to clients at insane markups. The bimodality of H-1Bs is important to remember. Personally, I have trouble meeting devs around here making less than, say, $120K, H-1B or otherwise.

tapatio 14y ago

Exactly.

netcan 14y ago

Under that definition there is no such thing as a shortage.

stuaxo 14y ago
Not true, you'll get to a point where however much you pay you'll be interviewing people who can't do the job, as opposed to paying more and finding somebody who is capable.
- rbanffy 14y ago
  You are then comparing apples to oranges. Hiring someone who can't do the job for less than someone who could is not a very smart decision. I remember Scott Adams using the word "managerish" to describe decisions like this.
DamnYuppie 14y ago
That is the point I was trying to make. I don't believe their is a true shortage of talented workers, but I do believe large companies state that there is as a means to drive down wages. H1-B Visa just happen to be the handy hammer they use to do it with.
- netcan 14y ago
  "Shortage" in an economy is expressed as higher prices. In almost any cases you will be able to find more workers if you are willing to pay an unlimited amount. There is no way of determining the "correct" price. The reverse is also true. More potential employees in the marketplace lowers salaries. If you take "you could find employees at a higher salary" as a proof that the shortage doesn't exist you'll virtually always have that proof. Under that definition shortages don't exist which feels like some sort of semantic trickery.
- avemuri 14y ago
  If companies are hiring workers who can't do the job just because they're cheaper, they're only hurting themselves. I'd imagine it's an unsustainable strategy. If companies are hiring workers who can do the job and are willing to do it for less than domestic workers, why is that wrong?

rbanffy 14y ago

Everything points to the conclusion that there are both a shortage of cheap labor and a shortage of well-paid positions for tech workers.

mikeash 14y ago

At the price point we can afford to pay based on the rates our clients will pay us.

mikeash 14y ago
I realized this was way too flippant. To elaborate, we're paying around the same as what everybody is paying, and a candidate with similar experience and skills to my own would make the same I do. It's rare to have someone turn us down due to pay. The people we want generally don't apply in the first place because they already have a job they like.

potatolicious 14y ago

What sector of the industry do you work in? Here in NYC startup-land we have no trouble finding talent at "market" rates. Granted, market-rate for an engineer with even just a few years of experience and up-to-date tech skills is $150K-200K total comp. I've noticed that the H-1B discussions tend to be extremely polarized, and it reflects the bimodal distribution of the tech industry. There's the highly-paid glam side (see: Google, Facebook, etc) where comp is high and you meet $200K H-1B engineers around every corner. And then there's the bodyshop consultancy side of the industry, where cheap H-1Bs are brought in by the planeload and shopped out to clients at insane markups. The bimodality of H-1Bs is important to remember. Personally, I have trouble meeting devs around here making less than, say, $120K, H-1B or otherwise.