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Being in IT since 1997 I definitely agree with this. I have seen way to many job postings for positions that want a great deal of experience and well below mar

Being in IT since 1997 I definitely agree with this. I have seen way to many job postings for positions that want a great deal of experience and well below market pay. Eventually these get filled by H1-B visa holders. Overall I see H1-B visas as a means of companies to suppress wages of domestic IT workers. I know entirely way too many good software engineers and developers looking for jobs for there to be a "shortage". That being said I am very aware that my comment like the rest of the comments is anecdotal. I am hopeful more objective numbers can be found that will allow us to have a more informed conversation on this.

mikeash 14y ago
I have way too much trouble finding good developers to hire for there not to be a shortage. I wonder whose anecdotes are correct.
- DamnYuppie 14y ago
  At what price point? If you are looking for good developers at or near the "market" you will probably not find them. Anyone who has been in the industry for awhile and is very competent will know they are generally worth more.
  - tapatio 14y ago
    Exactly.
  - netcan 14y ago
    Under that definition there is no such thing as a shortage.
    - stuaxo 14y ago
      Not true, you'll get to a point where however much you pay you'll be interviewing people who can't do the job, as opposed to paying more and finding somebody who is capable.
      - rbanffy 14y ago
        You are then comparing apples to oranges. Hiring someone who can't do the job for less than someone who could is not a very smart decision. I remember Scott Adams using the word "managerish" to describe decisions like this.
    - DamnYuppie 14y ago
      That is the point I was trying to make. I don't believe their is a true shortage of talented workers, but I do believe large companies state that there is as a means to drive down wages. H1-B Visa just happen to be the handy hammer they use to do it with.
      - netcan 14y ago
        "Shortage" in an economy is expressed as higher prices. In almost any cases you will be able to find more workers if you are willing to pay an unlimited amount. There is no way of determining the "correct" price. The reverse is also true. More potential employees in the marketplace lowers salaries. If you take "you could find employees at a higher salary" as a proof that the shortage doesn't exist you'll virtually always have that proof. Under that definition shortages don't exist which feels like some sort of semantic trickery.
      - avemuri 14y ago
        If companies are hiring workers who can't do the job just because they're cheaper, they're only hurting themselves. I'd imagine it's an unsustainable strategy. If companies are hiring workers who can do the job and are willing to do it for less than domestic workers, why is that wrong?
  - rbanffy 14y ago
    Everything points to the conclusion that there are both a shortage of cheap labor and a shortage of well-paid positions for tech workers.
  - mikeash 14y ago
    At the price point we can afford to pay based on the rates our clients will pay us.
    - mikeash 14y ago
      I realized this was way too flippant. To elaborate, we're paying around the same as what everybody is paying, and a candidate with similar experience and skills to my own would make the same I do. It's rare to have someone turn us down due to pay. The people we want generally don't apply in the first place because they already have a job they like.
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    What sector of the industry do you work in? Here in NYC startup-land we have no trouble finding talent at "market" rates. Granted, market-rate for an engineer with even just a few years of experience and up-to-date tech skills is $150K-200K total comp. I've noticed that the H-1B discussions tend to be extremely polarized, and it reflects the bimodal distribution of the tech industry. There's the highly-paid glam side (see: Google, Facebook, etc) where comp is high and you meet $200K H-1B engineers around every corner. And then there's the bodyshop consultancy side of the industry, where cheap H-1Bs are brought in by the planeload and shopped out to clients at insane markups. The bimodality of H-1Bs is important to remember. Personally, I have trouble meeting devs around here making less than, say, $120K, H-1B or otherwise.
- cgh 14y ago
  Quick question: do you hire remotely? Obviously I am talking domestic-remote as opposed to Philippines-remote. If you restrict yourself to local, on-site hiring then yeah, there's a shortage. If you hire people working remotely from Iowa or Canada, then maybe less so.
  - mikeash 14y ago
    We do, for the right person, but we prefer on-site when possible. I'm actually the only remote worker in the company at the moment. I can't say I've ever seen a good candidate who wanted to work remotely from Iowa or Canada, but maybe we just haven't looked properly. (Nothing against those places, just hasn't happened to me.) Of course, if you're willing to hire remotely, the H1-B thing gets much less pressing, as you can simply hire people overseas and keep them there, no need for a visa at all.
untog 14y ago
To counter your anecdote with another anecdote: I am a H1B holder, and in the process of looking for new jobs (which, yes, is quite possible) I have seen many a "no visa please" notice in job descriptions. A lot of smaller companies simply don't want to go through that process. Where are you located? Certainly in NYC I don't know a single good developer looking for a job.
edderly 14y ago
By definition any increase in supply of labor will lower wages somewhat. However, as I'm currently on an H1-B and being paid a pretty hefty wedge I suspect your assertion is wrong. In this market the only good engineers I see having problems looking for jobs are those who are unwilling to relocate or older guys.

mikeash 14y ago

I have way too much trouble finding good developers to hire for there not to be a shortage. I wonder whose anecdotes are correct.

DamnYuppie 14y ago
At what price point? If you are looking for good developers at or near the "market" you will probably not find them. Anyone who has been in the industry for awhile and is very competent will know they are generally worth more.
- tapatio 14y ago
  Exactly.
- netcan 14y ago
  Under that definition there is no such thing as a shortage.
  - stuaxo 14y ago
    Not true, you'll get to a point where however much you pay you'll be interviewing people who can't do the job, as opposed to paying more and finding somebody who is capable.
    - rbanffy 14y ago
      You are then comparing apples to oranges. Hiring someone who can't do the job for less than someone who could is not a very smart decision. I remember Scott Adams using the word "managerish" to describe decisions like this.
  - DamnYuppie 14y ago
    That is the point I was trying to make. I don't believe their is a true shortage of talented workers, but I do believe large companies state that there is as a means to drive down wages. H1-B Visa just happen to be the handy hammer they use to do it with.
    - netcan 14y ago
      "Shortage" in an economy is expressed as higher prices. In almost any cases you will be able to find more workers if you are willing to pay an unlimited amount. There is no way of determining the "correct" price. The reverse is also true. More potential employees in the marketplace lowers salaries. If you take "you could find employees at a higher salary" as a proof that the shortage doesn't exist you'll virtually always have that proof. Under that definition shortages don't exist which feels like some sort of semantic trickery.
    - avemuri 14y ago
      If companies are hiring workers who can't do the job just because they're cheaper, they're only hurting themselves. I'd imagine it's an unsustainable strategy. If companies are hiring workers who can do the job and are willing to do it for less than domestic workers, why is that wrong?
- rbanffy 14y ago
  Everything points to the conclusion that there are both a shortage of cheap labor and a shortage of well-paid positions for tech workers.
- mikeash 14y ago
  At the price point we can afford to pay based on the rates our clients will pay us.
  - mikeash 14y ago
    I realized this was way too flippant. To elaborate, we're paying around the same as what everybody is paying, and a candidate with similar experience and skills to my own would make the same I do. It's rare to have someone turn us down due to pay. The people we want generally don't apply in the first place because they already have a job they like.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  What sector of the industry do you work in? Here in NYC startup-land we have no trouble finding talent at "market" rates. Granted, market-rate for an engineer with even just a few years of experience and up-to-date tech skills is $150K-200K total comp. I've noticed that the H-1B discussions tend to be extremely polarized, and it reflects the bimodal distribution of the tech industry. There's the highly-paid glam side (see: Google, Facebook, etc) where comp is high and you meet $200K H-1B engineers around every corner. And then there's the bodyshop consultancy side of the industry, where cheap H-1Bs are brought in by the planeload and shopped out to clients at insane markups. The bimodality of H-1Bs is important to remember. Personally, I have trouble meeting devs around here making less than, say, $120K, H-1B or otherwise.
cgh 14y ago
Quick question: do you hire remotely? Obviously I am talking domestic-remote as opposed to Philippines-remote. If you restrict yourself to local, on-site hiring then yeah, there's a shortage. If you hire people working remotely from Iowa or Canada, then maybe less so.
- mikeash 14y ago
  We do, for the right person, but we prefer on-site when possible. I'm actually the only remote worker in the company at the moment. I can't say I've ever seen a good candidate who wanted to work remotely from Iowa or Canada, but maybe we just haven't looked properly. (Nothing against those places, just hasn't happened to me.) Of course, if you're willing to hire remotely, the H1-B thing gets much less pressing, as you can simply hire people overseas and keep them there, no need for a visa at all.

untog 14y ago

To counter your anecdote with another anecdote: I am a H1B holder, and in the process of looking for new jobs (which, yes, is quite possible) I have seen many a "no visa please" notice in job descriptions. A lot of smaller companies simply don't want to go through that process. Where are you located? Certainly in NYC I don't know a single good developer looking for a job.

edderly 14y ago

By definition any increase in supply of labor will lower wages somewhat. However, as I'm currently on an H1-B and being paid a pretty hefty wedge I suspect your assertion is wrong. In this market the only good engineers I see having problems looking for jobs are those who are unwilling to relocate or older guys.