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I work with at least one guy who just straight-up isn't interested in managing, ever. As the team has expanded, he's moved two tiers down the org chart, but he

I work with at least one guy who just straight-up isn't interested in managing, ever. As the team has expanded, he's moved two tiers down the org chart, but he isn't interested in learning the administrative portion at all. It's not about control, some people just seem to be allergic to meetings, dealing with stakeholders, etc. It's a perfectly valid viewpoint to have: some people just want to write code.

blindhippo 14y ago
The guy you mention likely is a solitary worker (I'm one as well). We tend to prefer not working in teams, other people slow us down and cause confusion in our work. But America's insistence on a "team" based work culture really hampers those like me. We can get 10x the amount of work done individually as we can as part of a team if left to our devices - but this is frowned upon, indeed looked at as a social "problem". I * sincerely* blame MBA culture for this detrimental attitude.
- alanctgardner2 14y ago
  It's kind of an interesting viewpoint; how do you handle being 'crowded out' of a project? For example, if you started as the sole worker on something internal, but then it became customer-facing, and the team necessarily had to expand to get the work done. I can appreciate saying that you only get 10% of the work done if you're on a team, but you don't honestly think you can achieve as much as a ten man team? What about when more than 10 people are required? I guess my question is, as a self-identified 'solitary worker', would you take it upon yourself to leave a project if it reached a point where team expansion was necessary? Is there any good way to manage someone like you to get you to contribute to a larger project, or if it a lost cause?
  - adeaver 14y ago
    There is a difference between working on a team where everyone works on the same bits and you have to work around their projects and their timelines, and being part of a team where each 'member' works in a semi-siloed, semi-independant capacity. I much prefer the latter to the former since I don't have to work about anyone else makes changes to stuff without my knowledge but I'm still on the team, still met with the others to discuss what we are working on and how it impacts X or Y.
    - alanctgardner2 14y ago
      I can see the siloed approach working to a point, but there are two big drawbacks: - no exposure to new skills and techniques. This particular employee is pretty fond of cut-and-paste, and we've been refactoring to fix a lot of that. As we refactor, the ground is sort of shrinking beneath his feet, because he isn't willing to work on other people's code. If you aren't willing to learn new techniques and read other people's code, your portion of the codebase is going to accumulate technical debt while the rest moves forward. - no big-picture perspective. I love to stick my nose into every architectural discussion, and I think it's beneficial for us to plan big decisions as a team, to try and find the best solution. From experience, a siloed employee won't be interested in getting involved in these large-scale discussions, because they haven't kept up with the rest of the codebase, and they don't have an interest in it. Essentially, having all your team hived off from each other, doing their own thing: - gives you a very low bus factor. If one guy moves on, dies, whatever, suddenly you've got a dark area of your codebase with built up debt and no knowledge. - reduces the cohesiveness of your design. At the best, the high level plan will be dictated by management or a single architecture, and each employee builds their part according to spec. This seems to reduce autonomy and job satisfaction, and it presumes none of the coders have any good ideas about architecture (wrong). If you have techniques or suggestions for getting around these issues, I'd be glad to hear them. It is a big problem that some very good technical people aren't necessarily very social.
    - adeaver 14y ago
      @alanctgardner2 Agreed, there are limitations. If that guy is a fan of cut-n-paste then there are bigger issues at hand than just social interaction. Working in a siloed environment doesn't mean not learning new skills or techniques. And I don't mean that you are only working on the same project/chunk of code the entire time. We would often switch projects so that what I'm working on today is completely different that last week and has been touched/edited/tweaked by just about everyone on the team at some point. Having a Big Picture perspective is vital be being able to work individually. You have to know how your work will ultimately impact everyone else and how their will impact you. I don't mean that everyone is working on completely separate projects but that Employee 1 might be working on a feature enhancement on version 4.5.3 while Employee 2 is working on a refactor of the back end code and I might be working on implementing a change control request on version 4.5.4. Perhaps this is a better way to explain: everyone is working on the same Project but on individual and separate Tasks
  - blindhippo 14y ago
    " would you take it upon yourself to leave a project if it reached a point where team expansion was necessary?" Not every project requires team expansion and teams vary in strength and productivity. But in general, yes I would leave if I were required to stand in front of 9 "team members" every morning and tell them my deeds and troubles. At this point, the challenges have been solved and the single hardest problem in the project is coordinating everyone. I get bored and frustrated at this point causing me to seek a more interesting project. Software is fundamentally a creative discipline - creativity rarely occurs in a committee. A 10 man team can certainly do more work then I can (in general). But if I'm unable to work properly in a 10 man team, I SHOULDN'T be on that team. Not all of us are effective in the traditional agile environment - give us a nook somewhere and let us solve problems independently. You'll get far more value out of us that way then adding us as the 11th member of that team.
mindcrime 14y ago
I work with at least one guy who just straight-up isn't interested in managing, ever. As the team has expanded, he's moved two tiers down the org chart, but he isn't interested in learning the administrative portion at all. I just want to point out that there are different aspects of "managing". There's tactical, command and control, administrivia type stuff, and there's "solving problems, acquiring resources and providing high level coordination" and then there's "strategic decision making" kind of management. One can certainly lack interest in one of those, but might find the others interesting if exposed to that part of things. Personally, I consider most of what most managers do, to be "administrivia" which is of very low value, and I'd have no interest in ever doing that. But when a manager it tasked with actually identifying and solving problems, making strategic decisions, etc., that part can actually be as intellectually challenging as programming and can actually be fun in it's way. It's not about control, some people just seem to be allergic to meetings, dealing with stakeholders, etc. It's a perfectly valid viewpoint to have: some people just want to write code. That's absolutely true as well. I was largely that way when I was younger, but over time I've grown more interested in the other aspects of things.

I work with at least one guy who just straight-up isn't interested in managing, ever. As the team has expanded, he's moved two tiers down the org chart, but he isn't interested in learning the administrative portion at all. It's not about control, some people just seem to be allergic to meetings, dealing with stakeholders, etc. It's a perfectly valid viewpoint to have: some people just want to write code.

blindhippo 14y ago

The guy you mention likely is a solitary worker (I'm one as well). We tend to prefer not working in teams, other people slow us down and cause confusion in our work. But America's insistence on a "team" based work culture really hampers those like me. We can get 10x the amount of work done individually as we can as part of a team if left to our devices - but this is frowned upon, indeed looked at as a social "problem". I * sincerely* blame MBA culture for this detrimental attitude.

alanctgardner2 14y ago
It's kind of an interesting viewpoint; how do you handle being 'crowded out' of a project? For example, if you started as the sole worker on something internal, but then it became customer-facing, and the team necessarily had to expand to get the work done. I can appreciate saying that you only get 10% of the work done if you're on a team, but you don't honestly think you can achieve as much as a ten man team? What about when more than 10 people are required? I guess my question is, as a self-identified 'solitary worker', would you take it upon yourself to leave a project if it reached a point where team expansion was necessary? Is there any good way to manage someone like you to get you to contribute to a larger project, or if it a lost cause?
- adeaver 14y ago
  There is a difference between working on a team where everyone works on the same bits and you have to work around their projects and their timelines, and being part of a team where each 'member' works in a semi-siloed, semi-independant capacity. I much prefer the latter to the former since I don't have to work about anyone else makes changes to stuff without my knowledge but I'm still on the team, still met with the others to discuss what we are working on and how it impacts X or Y.
  - alanctgardner2 14y ago
    I can see the siloed approach working to a point, but there are two big drawbacks: - no exposure to new skills and techniques. This particular employee is pretty fond of cut-and-paste, and we've been refactoring to fix a lot of that. As we refactor, the ground is sort of shrinking beneath his feet, because he isn't willing to work on other people's code. If you aren't willing to learn new techniques and read other people's code, your portion of the codebase is going to accumulate technical debt while the rest moves forward. - no big-picture perspective. I love to stick my nose into every architectural discussion, and I think it's beneficial for us to plan big decisions as a team, to try and find the best solution. From experience, a siloed employee won't be interested in getting involved in these large-scale discussions, because they haven't kept up with the rest of the codebase, and they don't have an interest in it. Essentially, having all your team hived off from each other, doing their own thing: - gives you a very low bus factor. If one guy moves on, dies, whatever, suddenly you've got a dark area of your codebase with built up debt and no knowledge. - reduces the cohesiveness of your design. At the best, the high level plan will be dictated by management or a single architecture, and each employee builds their part according to spec. This seems to reduce autonomy and job satisfaction, and it presumes none of the coders have any good ideas about architecture (wrong). If you have techniques or suggestions for getting around these issues, I'd be glad to hear them. It is a big problem that some very good technical people aren't necessarily very social.
  - adeaver 14y ago
    @alanctgardner2 Agreed, there are limitations. If that guy is a fan of cut-n-paste then there are bigger issues at hand than just social interaction. Working in a siloed environment doesn't mean not learning new skills or techniques. And I don't mean that you are only working on the same project/chunk of code the entire time. We would often switch projects so that what I'm working on today is completely different that last week and has been touched/edited/tweaked by just about everyone on the team at some point. Having a Big Picture perspective is vital be being able to work individually. You have to know how your work will ultimately impact everyone else and how their will impact you. I don't mean that everyone is working on completely separate projects but that Employee 1 might be working on a feature enhancement on version 4.5.3 while Employee 2 is working on a refactor of the back end code and I might be working on implementing a change control request on version 4.5.4. Perhaps this is a better way to explain: everyone is working on the same Project but on individual and separate Tasks
- blindhippo 14y ago
  " would you take it upon yourself to leave a project if it reached a point where team expansion was necessary?" Not every project requires team expansion and teams vary in strength and productivity. But in general, yes I would leave if I were required to stand in front of 9 "team members" every morning and tell them my deeds and troubles. At this point, the challenges have been solved and the single hardest problem in the project is coordinating everyone. I get bored and frustrated at this point causing me to seek a more interesting project. Software is fundamentally a creative discipline - creativity rarely occurs in a committee. A 10 man team can certainly do more work then I can (in general). But if I'm unable to work properly in a 10 man team, I SHOULDN'T be on that team. Not all of us are effective in the traditional agile environment - give us a nook somewhere and let us solve problems independently. You'll get far more value out of us that way then adding us as the 11th member of that team.

mindcrime 14y ago

I work with at least one guy who just straight-up isn't interested in managing, ever. As the team has expanded, he's moved two tiers down the org chart, but he isn't interested in learning the administrative portion at all. I just want to point out that there are different aspects of "managing". There's tactical, command and control, administrivia type stuff, and there's "solving problems, acquiring resources and providing high level coordination" and then there's "strategic decision making" kind of management. One can certainly lack interest in one of those, but might find the others interesting if exposed to that part of things. Personally, I consider most of what most managers do, to be "administrivia" which is of very low value, and I'd have no interest in ever doing that. But when a manager it tasked with actually identifying and solving problems, making strategic decisions, etc., that part can actually be as intellectually challenging as programming and can actually be fun in it's way. It's not about control, some people just seem to be allergic to meetings, dealing with stakeholders, etc. It's a perfectly valid viewpoint to have: some people just want to write code. That's absolutely true as well. I was largely that way when I was younger, but over time I've grown more interested in the other aspects of things.