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This. The same programmers that complain about clueless micromanagement are usually also the ones with the "I don't want to know all this business shit" attitud

This. The same programmers that complain about clueless micromanagement are usually also the ones with the "I don't want to know all this business shit" attitude. Guess what? You're being micromanaged by MBA's because otherwise, despite all your l33t coding skills, you're f-ing useless.

mason55 14y ago
> usually also the ones with the "I don't want to know all this business shit" attitude Very easily identified early in school as the ones who say "I don't want to know all this history shit" or "I don't want to know all this writing shit"
- thejteam 14y ago
  A liberal arts education gives you an advantage over other engineers. "You mean this guy can actually read and write?" Especially true if the business ever needs to write a technical proposal to win a contract. Very important to have engineers who can read and write then.
  - jeltz 14y ago
    Most liberal arts educations are a quite inefficient way to teach people to write. Many who leave such educations are not that much better off than when they started.
  - mindcrime 14y ago
    A liberal arts education gives you an advantage over other engineers. "You mean this guy can actually read and write?" There are a couple of questionable assumptions baked into that statement, IMO. First, that a "liberal arts education" (by which I assume you mean earning a 4 year degree from a liberal arts university) definitely means you will come out able to read and write to a superior degree. Maybe if you major in English or Philosophy, otherwise, I wouldn't take that as a given. Also, there seems to be an implicit assumption that the only way to gain a solid grasp of reading and writing well is through a liberal arts education (again, I'm assuming you mean a formal liberal arts education). I'm not sure I buy that. The best way to learn to write, IMO, is to write a lot, read a lot, and solicit feedback on your writing. None of that requires a formal liberal arts education. Now if you aren't necessarily referring to formal / university education, then we probably don't disagree. I certainly agree with the point that having solid reading and writing skills is a valuable thing!
- damoncali 14y ago
  Two of the most painful experiences in my life (ok- slight exaggeration) came in engineering school. One was watching the first time we were asked to make powerpoint presentations (they were transparencies, actually, but same diff). The other was reading the first papers we wrote in our "writing for engineers" class. In both cases, sitting there and watching was excruciating in that "holy crap this is awful, just make it stop for the sake of the poor guy" kind of way. But you know what? Some of us got better at it - the ones who made an effort. This made me realize that we do not force enough liberal arts on engineers in school. In fact, I was prohibited from taking many art classes - I got no credit towards my degree for them because they were perceived as "soft". That is crazy.
  - mason55 14y ago
    I ended up realizing in my junior year of high school that liberal arts were enjoyable. Graduated with a degree in CS and a minor in creative writing and I'm very glad I did it. I also think that reading and posting on places with high quality discussion like HN and reddit circa 2008 can really improve your communication skills.
michaelochurch 14y ago
This. The same programmers that complain about clueless micromanagement are usually also the ones with the "I don't want to know all this business shit" attitude. Ridiculous. I know this stereotype exists, but I don't know many programmers who actually hold that attitude. The "business shit" is intellectually easier and not at all uninteresting. The payoff in learning it is quite high: in a functional organization, you get more respect and money for a relatively small investment. There might be some clueless 23-year-olds out there who reflexively dislike "business" because of Marxist-academic indoctrination, but that's a rare and transient state. If anything, the MBA micromanagers try to encourage this attitude by taking the "I will handle all of this" approach with the business side and the "big picture". They make it their turf by assertion, then wonder why the engineers under them seem not to give a shit. Engineers tune out when they don't have any power or control. It's a survival mechanism. If you can't do anything about it, don't waste cycles on it.
- alanctgardner2 14y ago
  I work with at least one guy who just straight-up isn't interested in managing, ever. As the team has expanded, he's moved two tiers down the org chart, but he isn't interested in learning the administrative portion at all. It's not about control, some people just seem to be allergic to meetings, dealing with stakeholders, etc. It's a perfectly valid viewpoint to have: some people just want to write code.
  - blindhippo 14y ago
    The guy you mention likely is a solitary worker (I'm one as well). We tend to prefer not working in teams, other people slow us down and cause confusion in our work. But America's insistence on a "team" based work culture really hampers those like me. We can get 10x the amount of work done individually as we can as part of a team if left to our devices - but this is frowned upon, indeed looked at as a social "problem". I * sincerely* blame MBA culture for this detrimental attitude.
    - alanctgardner2 14y ago
phaus 14y ago
I'm a junior in an Information Systems program right now. I have to admit, when I first started school, and I looked at my curriculum, It was pretty disappointing to find out that I'd be taking more business and economics classes than actual computer-related courses. Now that I'm over 80 credit hours in, I have to say that my Micro and Macroeconomics classes were two of the most interesting courses in my entire program.

mason55 14y ago

> usually also the ones with the "I don't want to know all this business shit" attitude Very easily identified early in school as the ones who say "I don't want to know all this history shit" or "I don't want to know all this writing shit"

thejteam 14y ago
A liberal arts education gives you an advantage over other engineers. "You mean this guy can actually read and write?" Especially true if the business ever needs to write a technical proposal to win a contract. Very important to have engineers who can read and write then.
- jeltz 14y ago
  Most liberal arts educations are a quite inefficient way to teach people to write. Many who leave such educations are not that much better off than when they started.
- mindcrime 14y ago
  A liberal arts education gives you an advantage over other engineers. "You mean this guy can actually read and write?" There are a couple of questionable assumptions baked into that statement, IMO. First, that a "liberal arts education" (by which I assume you mean earning a 4 year degree from a liberal arts university) definitely means you will come out able to read and write to a superior degree. Maybe if you major in English or Philosophy, otherwise, I wouldn't take that as a given. Also, there seems to be an implicit assumption that the only way to gain a solid grasp of reading and writing well is through a liberal arts education (again, I'm assuming you mean a formal liberal arts education). I'm not sure I buy that. The best way to learn to write, IMO, is to write a lot, read a lot, and solicit feedback on your writing. None of that requires a formal liberal arts education. Now if you aren't necessarily referring to formal / university education, then we probably don't disagree. I certainly agree with the point that having solid reading and writing skills is a valuable thing!
damoncali 14y ago
Two of the most painful experiences in my life (ok- slight exaggeration) came in engineering school. One was watching the first time we were asked to make powerpoint presentations (they were transparencies, actually, but same diff). The other was reading the first papers we wrote in our "writing for engineers" class. In both cases, sitting there and watching was excruciating in that "holy crap this is awful, just make it stop for the sake of the poor guy" kind of way. But you know what? Some of us got better at it - the ones who made an effort. This made me realize that we do not force enough liberal arts on engineers in school. In fact, I was prohibited from taking many art classes - I got no credit towards my degree for them because they were perceived as "soft". That is crazy.
- mason55 14y ago
  I ended up realizing in my junior year of high school that liberal arts were enjoyable. Graduated with a degree in CS and a minor in creative writing and I'm very glad I did it. I also think that reading and posting on places with high quality discussion like HN and reddit circa 2008 can really improve your communication skills.

michaelochurch 14y ago

This. The same programmers that complain about clueless micromanagement are usually also the ones with the "I don't want to know all this business shit" attitude. Ridiculous. I know this stereotype exists, but I don't know many programmers who actually hold that attitude. The "business shit" is intellectually easier and not at all uninteresting. The payoff in learning it is quite high: in a functional organization, you get more respect and money for a relatively small investment. There might be some clueless 23-year-olds out there who reflexively dislike "business" because of Marxist-academic indoctrination, but that's a rare and transient state. If anything, the MBA micromanagers try to encourage this attitude by taking the "I will handle all of this" approach with the business side and the "big picture". They make it their turf by assertion, then wonder why the engineers under them seem not to give a shit. Engineers tune out when they don't have any power or control. It's a survival mechanism. If you can't do anything about it, don't waste cycles on it.

alanctgardner2 14y ago
I work with at least one guy who just straight-up isn't interested in managing, ever. As the team has expanded, he's moved two tiers down the org chart, but he isn't interested in learning the administrative portion at all. It's not about control, some people just seem to be allergic to meetings, dealing with stakeholders, etc. It's a perfectly valid viewpoint to have: some people just want to write code.
- blindhippo 14y ago
  The guy you mention likely is a solitary worker (I'm one as well). We tend to prefer not working in teams, other people slow us down and cause confusion in our work. But America's insistence on a "team" based work culture really hampers those like me. We can get 10x the amount of work done individually as we can as part of a team if left to our devices - but this is frowned upon, indeed looked at as a social "problem". I * sincerely* blame MBA culture for this detrimental attitude.
  - alanctgardner2 14y ago

phaus 14y ago

I'm a junior in an Information Systems program right now. I have to admit, when I first started school, and I looked at my curriculum, It was pretty disappointing to find out that I'd be taking more business and economics classes than actual computer-related courses. Now that I'm over 80 credit hours in, I have to say that my Micro and Macroeconomics classes were two of the most interesting courses in my entire program.